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[IDEA] Reddit Refugees thread

Hello there!

I am, like a lot of people today, a Reddit refugee. As newcomers, it is customary to be a good guest and be polite. We can already see that the current inflow of new arrivals already starts to fill /t/lounge with "Hello, I'm from Reddit" threads which, let's be honest, only will drown every single post under every other out there. I think, as a matter of courtesy, we could try and regroup all those into a single thread. It could be another thread or this one, I don't really care much!

This community seems lovely, the website is gorgeous, and the site mechanics, while similar to Reddit's, looks a bit different. Make sure to read the first message you have in your inbox, describing how the site works. Don't throw downvotes left and right, use them sparingly.

Let's do this (ex-)Redditors/new Snapzites, we can be good guests!

3 years ago by folkrav with 232 comments

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Conversation 11 comments by 8 users
  • SoCalWingFan
    +35

    I was getting a little tired of being obsessed with Reddit anyway...it's time for a new obsession!

    • unimportantname
      +4

      Wooohoo for new obsessions! As a Michigander I must say you have excellent taste in hockey teams.

      • SoCalWingFan
        +3

        Thank you; it's been a pretty exciting last couple of days for 'Wings fans. Doing things in the off-season? I must be taking crazy pills!

    • folkrav
      +4

      Welcome fellow Redditor :) I hope all us refugees get along around here!

    • Nerdeiro
      +2

      I was actually bored with reddit. Now at least I have a whole lot of new stuff to learn, which is kinda appealing to the geek on me.

      • annexi
        +1

        Basically went there for wasting time and cheap stimulation....

      • loch
        +1

        i'm not necessarily bored of reddit yet but they're making some poor decisions.

    • SnapPee
      +2

      Yeah, I love all the posters talking about how they'll stop procrastinating if Reddit ever does die. I know myself well enough to be pretty sure I'll just port off all that "free" time to some other site.

    • loch
      +1

      Fellow Detroiter? Did you watch the Tigers tonight?

      • SoCalWingFan
        +1

        I missed the last couple of games while traveling over the 4th...glad to see they won, but Miggy going on the DL is not good at all

Conversation 14 comments by 12 users
  • Zugallus
    +9

    Checking this place out until Victoriagate blows over. It looks great!

    • gabe2068
      +8

      You think it will blow over? I kind of think this might be the end of reddit for a lot of people.

      • vulpixwithdix
        +13

        I made the choice to come here instead of reddit. I'm glad I did! Seems much more friendly and less hate-fueled rage. Feels kinda comfy =)

        • DatTomahawk
          +3

          I honestly don't see a reason to leave Reddit entirely. There are still a lot of subreddits that don't have a community herethat I still want to use. If I were you I wouldn't completely abandon Reddit.

          • Jackalope (edited 3 years ago)
            +1

            Hrmm... I don't see how reddit will recover from this—as long as the admins and CEO are digging in their heals and not engaging the community over their concerns, more people are going to get frustrated and leave. Maybe that's their endgame? Regardless, I'm finding a lot of the content I enjoyed in the subreddits represented in tribes here—some of the focus is a bit broad, but it will specialize out soon enough!

            • ZanThrax
              +1

              After 8 years and change, I'm ready to move on from Reddit. But there's nowhere near enough of a userbase here for the Snapzu equivalent of the smallish subreddits to form.

            • Jackalope
              +1
              @ZanThrax -

              Yup. I started a couple of tribes when I emigrated during the recent reddit AMAgeddon (/t/commutercycling and /t/3dprintingsladlp) and things are still very quiet there. But then, these tribes are only days old. I'm willing to give it a little time before I become disillusioned.

      • Zugallus
        +4

        You're right. It's the end of Reddit's glory days, alright, and with it a lot of people will leave. But there will be quite a while until the niche subreddits I actually used Reddit for become thriving enough around here. But as for the default subreddits, I'll gladly switch over to this place.

      • Niqulaz
        +2

        It will blow over. Reddit will remain in some form or fashion. Look at the front page of reddit in private mode. Around 25% of the content is back to normal. Of course, it's from "smaller" subs like /r/aww or /r/mildyinteresting while the bigger subs like /r/pics and /r/funny is still getting user backlash from having turned on the lights again.

        But three days from now, it'll be back to what it was in the past. Only with fewer users around.

      • shadow1515 (edited 3 years ago)
        +1

        Yeah, I think the site will continue to be huge for quite a while still from sheer inertia but I'm fairly confident this is the beginning of the end, however long and protracted that ends up being.

        That said, I'll certainly still be using Reddit for as long as there are communities I enjoy there. But the more I use Snapzu the more I prefer the layout, so hopefully as the migration accelerates some of my favorite communities will find a home here as well.

      • worthlessgalaxy
        +1

        I think it will drastically reduce my reddit, down to just a few subs. I was getting tired of some of the constant jokes and memes in places where they didn't add to the conversation. I will probably stay with just a few subs that I really liked that I don't expect to migrate over.

        I think reddit will be split between several sites. All the sites will probably be better for it, spread out some of that toxicity.

      • picklefingers
        +1

        I think it will "blow over" but this hit looks like the site has changed forever. Things came to the surface that have never been shown before. I think reddit has officially entered its final days as the top dog in the content aggregation world. I don't think it will completely die. I think it will revamp itself like most dying sites and really pander to a very niche market.

      • Potzblitz
        +1

        i will stay at least for some Subreddits... Motorsports, for example, is quite low here... The WEC Crowd over on Reddit is awesome... The Mods and People... i would miss them the most.

    • slib
      +3

      rip, it's already over.

  • yobabyugly
    +39

    Yep, I like that idea. This site has just enough similarities to make the switch easy, but enough differences that it can grow into something much better!

    • djsparky
      +18

      I agree, I was looking at other alternatives, and I think this one is similar and different enough to be something new and exciting.

      I came to reddit during the digg mass exodus, so now is another one.

      • TiengAnh (edited 3 years ago)
        +11

        Same here. Voat looks good too, but it just keeps going down; I understand there isn't enough money for proper servers or something.

        Reddit seems to have gone the way of Digg which went the way of Plastic.com, which later resurfaced as infinitetrees.com, in case anyone remembers that. (The latter seems all rather mysterious right now; maybe I'll sign up and see what's there; the former just doesn't do anything or go anywhere as far as I can tell.) This is from the nineties; I'm old.

        I intend to look around here and get active as time allows. Not going to be as passive as I was as on Reddit - there I was usually just hanging back and watching. I like the idea of starting "tribes".

        I do like the interface. Much more elegant and "grown up" than Reddit.

        • mod
          +3

          Agreed.

          • TiengAnh
            +5

            I hope there might be plans for a "night mode" though, like in RES. Or maybe it does exist and I just haven't looked around enough yet...

            • Erik
              +2

              Amen to that, bright white interfaces hurt my eyes.

            • djsparky
              +1

              I'm still kinda confused by some things on here, actually most of them. But I'm trying to learn.

            • Ghostzebra (edited 3 years ago)
              +2
              @djsparky -

              Me too, do you know where you go to see your 3 invite codes after you've joined?? I feel so lost!

            • friberg
              +1
              @Ghostzebra -

              Click on your own little avatar-icon in the top bar, and in the same row as the PM's there should be an "invite codes" title! Click it :)!

      • Nerdeiro
        +6

        I saw the writing on the wall when Reddit's CEO Ellen Pao came up with all that talk about making Reddit "a safer place", but I was too lazy to look for an alternative before. Today was the proverbial straw.

        As another Digg refugee, I'm starting to understand how my Jewish ancestors felt, being forced from one place to another during the Diaspora.

      • Gish
        +1

        Only problem I have seen so far is load times. More than likely due to the recent "Reddit Refugees".

    • MePLUR
      +10

      This site has just enough similarities to make the switch easy, but enough differences that it can grow into something much better!

      You said it better than I could. There are some really good features here (eg. posting to multiple tribes), and I'm liking it so far.

      • jessdabess
        +12

        Me too. The only thing that feels off is that it feels... empty? Just a lot smaller than I'm used to, but it is to be expected I guess.

        • ObiWanShinobi
          +7

          It's true, Snapzu has smaller numbers than Reddit, probably by a lot. But I have found it to be an unfailingly polite community, and with all these new people coming in, I'm sure there will be more content.

          • jessdabess
            +8

            The only thing I miss is being able to lurk through comment threads with hundreds and hundreds of discussion.

            On the plus side, here I don't feel like my comments will be constantly buried. So there are pros.

            • ObiWanShinobi
              +2

              I definitely feel like there is more room to be heard, here. It actually makes me want to post things, because there is a bigger chance I've found new content here.

        • stabthesnitch
          +2

          Some of the tribes are small, but seem to be active.

        • DominantMan
          +1

          Let's just give this some time. I'm one of those who used reddit for purely NSFW purposes. Ran some medium sized subreddits there but today was the last drop. I've registered here already over a year ago and it used to be completely empty for that purpose back then. I'm sure snapzu will grow on that department as well now and I'm going to abandon the reddit completely. Many much more advanced options here (though they are bit difficult to investigate as site is under heavy load right now)

    • folkrav
      +10

      I like it here! Feel free to bring the content you want. That's how this site will become a real alternative. Create tribes, invite people.

      • bogdan
        +6

        Glad to see you getting so involved! Really appreciate it. Especially since, from what I see in your profile, you came here with one of my codes, so you're like a little bro to me :D

        • godzilla8nj
          +4

          I'm also here thanks to your invite codes. Are you going to keep adding them? I'd like to link to the post in some of my subreddits.

          • bogdan
            +6

            Here you go. This is a fresh batch:

            SPZU-ON19RYDMUEJWM

            SPZU-28QBT8E4BYON5

            SPZU-VF2VFBVOYILNZ

            SPZU-MWQ4CF2DZJYZO

            SPZU-SA4U7Q2DSFHS1

            SPZU-A4HFBL0PA9JXK

            SPZU-6FS05ABL2WKUC

            SPZU-6ZJE3Z7E46G1M

            SPZU-C32EZXRHEF18C

            SPZU-DHW0PLMGHANBU

            SPZU-SILEE4UTTDHAD

            SPZU-6O8KBP413UKCO

            SPZU-83261CZ06Q6G6

            SPZU-UR231U1IG5W6S

            SPZU-LC7ZF0LKXWKIY

            SPZU-LM3OED1HGJI4L

            SPZU-HXE982CD96J1D

            SPZU-007EIC34RYKP8

            SPZU-9C78JA85AU06G

            SPZU-9VWDURZNEW6C8

            • vvMINOvv
              +1

              Thanks, used SPZU-LC7ZF0LKXWKIY

            • gummiboll
              +1

              Thank you, I used SPZU-28QBT8E4BYON5

        • folkrav
          +2

          I did :) Thanks to you, actually. I love this site. The community seems involved, and that new wave of people could make this place fly :)

    • the7egend
      +2

      Today was the first day hearing about it, I was transitioning over to Voat.co, but after seeing this place, I might try to make this my new home.

    • Aphrodite
      +1

      I checked out both Voat and then Snapzu. I much prefer Snapzu as, someone else pointed out, it is similar but not too similar. There is enough unique differences to keep me interested here.

  • KylarGrey
    +18

    Sounds like a good idea, a Reddit Exodus Megathread!

    • folkrav
      +9

      Thanks! We are a jumping ship by the dozen, it thought it would be nice of us to be thoughtful! :)

      • jessdabess
        +8
        • Bunnyrabbit
          +1

          Whoa look at that gif just right there in the comments and it's playing and everything omg so shiny I'm in love

          ...with snapzu, not the guy from arrested development. Just so there is no misunderstanding.

        • gabe2068
          +1

          What is this from?

          • KaliYugaz
            +4

            Arrested Development. It's fantastic, go watch it!

      • d4rk
        +8

        Reddit really does seem to be falling apart.

        Things are getting more chaotic as time goes by. It's a real shame, really.

        • Kayzaks
          +5

          It actually makes me kind of sad to see reddit die. Fond memories

          • Autumnal
            +10

            It's morphed into a hideous hate-filled parody of itself :/

          • CaCtUs2003
            +3

            Same here. I'm going to stick around a lot more when Reddit finally falls.

            • FRIK
              +2

              Yeah same here! I'm just hoping a lot of the communities I'm following will eventually move here. I've started one new tribe "t/cheapfitmeals" which will hopefully take the place of "r/eatcheapandhealthy and r/fitmeals"

              I just want my r/rva on here, just t/rva :( .

            • FamousFellah
              +1
              @FRIK -

              /t/cheapfitmeals sounds right up my alley. Thanks for starting it!

            • CaCtUs2003
              +1
              @FRIK -

              I would start some tribes but I'm a lazy ass moderator. I ended up ignoring the only subreddit I ever created and eventually just gave it away. (/r/creepymusic).

            • FRIK
              +1
              @CaCtUs2003 -

              Hey what can you do but give it up - you did the right thing. If you know how you moderate and don't like it, then don't do it. You're smart

        • Niqulaz
          +3

          Still, it's falling apart mid-summer.

          They'll get an influx of new users, who will not have known the old reddit. Only that there was a lot of noise when they first joined, and then nothing changed as far as they see it.

      • kraftykitty
        +4

        Good thinking! There are probably a lot of us, and I wouldn't want our gracious new hosts to get the wrong idea about us. I'm hoping that a lot of the former lurker-types come here and leave all the drama and rudeness on Reddit... or take it to Voat.

        • HiddenSage
          +4

          Voat can have the haters. I like it here.

        • [Deleted Profile]

          [This comment was removed]

      • get9
        +4

        It's definitely nice to see more people coming to Snapzu. I really like the layout and feel of the place, so I hope it gets more popular.

    • MajesticAlot
      +5

      Thanks for the warm welcome! Reddit is becoming too PC and volatile at the same time ... not a good combo.

  • GARlactic
    +16

    I love the idea that downvotes should only be used sparingly and not to disagree with a comment, but Reddit had the same rule, and as it grew in popularity, that rule fell to the wayside. Comments that contributed to the discussion but were controversial were buried unset downvote brigades and nothing could be done about it. I unfortunately can see that happening here as well.

    Regardless, Reddit has been going downhill for a while now, and I look forward to familiarizing myself with this website. I hope everyone is as nice as they say they are!

    • folkrav
      +7

      Unfortunately, every other website out there ultimately meets this fate. Who would have thought MySpace would go downhill? Eventually, people will stride off Facebook. It can take a while, but it will happen, someday. They'll make a huge mistake, people will hate it, they will find something else. We're in the social media era, eventually, they'll find a bit different formula that people will prefer at that time.

    • SnapPee
      +2

      I pulled up Pao's account to watch for any additional comments and it's kind of funny seeing how obliterated her karma is.

      https://www.reddit.com/user/ekjp

      • picklefingers
        +4

        I've been occasionaly checking her and knOthing's accounts ever since the FPH drama. It's just sort of interesting to watch. I think kn0thing had positive karma for one post, but besides that, everything they post is hated by the community.

      • DominantMan
        +1

        Wow.. Didn't actually know that she (or he?) is active over there. Thank you for sharing.

      • Slambardo
        +1

        This had me spew my beer all over my phone. Is it bad that I take so much joy in her horrible karma? I'm loving it.

    • Kysol
      +2

      i didn't think the site would stick with me as much as it has. I hardly find myself typing in "re{tab}" into a browser these days like I would do by habit when ever I opened a tab.

      • thatquail
        +2

        haha I'm definitely still at that stage, looking forward to getting rid of the "reddit reflex" once and for all

        • leagueofbacon
          +1

          "Well, I hit the end of reddit. <new tab>. I wonder whats on reddit?"

  • Legion
    +9

    I'm just tired of the drama going on constantly over at Reddit. I hope Snapzu can stay relatively drama-free for a while.

    • folkrav
      +10

      Reddit was pretty nice if you unsubbed from the defaults, actually... Though I agree, the defaults were a wild jungle mix of racism, hate, circlejerking and general unpleasantness.

      • Legion
        +6

        The thing is, I was actually unsubbed from the defaults (Except from /r/Space), but whenever there's a huge shitstorm, the drama makes its way into the smaller subreddits pretty fast.

        • folkrav
          +4

          Oh, indeed. The only one I enjoyed was IAMA, that's how I got sucked into that BlackOut2015 thing.

          • SnapPee
            +2

            I think that's why this latest drama stung so much. IAMA was amazing. The Ken Jennings AMA was the first thing that really sucked me into Reddit.

  • pilvlp
    +7

    First alternative I really enjoy.

  • Giacomo
    +7

    I love Snapzu's concept: it has a great design and awesome functionalities. My only complaint is about invites, as they're the things that scare people off the most. I wonder when they're going to be removed, so that the largest part of the Reddit community joins in...

    • Nate
      +8

      Honestly, I think the invite process probably greatly helps to slow the inevitable flood of Reddit users and spam accounts.

      That being said, I must have still trickled through. Hi!

      • biian
        +3

        This is what I think, too! I know voat has had issues with the mass insurgence of new users, so maybe the flood being trickled to a river (because it's still going to flow!) will help keep the website up? I guess we'll see!

        • thatquail
          +1

          ya voat has been almost consistently down for the last month. I've been checking in every few days and even when it is up it's ridiculously slow. it seems like snapzu is handling the crowds much better

    • picklefingers
      +3

      Most of us don't want a voat-level surge of reddit users. We have our own community and culture here at Snapzu and are willing to trade a huge amount of growth to retain the quality of our content.

    • KaliYugaz
      +3

      I actually love the invites and hope they are retained. It makes Snapzu impossible to brigade from off-site. You could say that we're /pol/-proof.

    • kraftykitty
      +1

      I am really enjoying this "leveling up" feature. Way to inspire my RPG gamer brain, Snapzu!

  • Woodsy
    +7

    Hello, I'm from Reddit.

    NFI what I'm doing but this place looks great! :D

    • folkrav
      +4

      I've been messing around here for an hour or so and I gotta say, I love it! Hope you do too!

      • Woodsy
        +4

        Upsnaps everywhere!

  • PMmeyourlove (edited 3 years ago)
    +6

    Holy shit, this sites UI just blows Reddit out of the water.

    • QuietKerfuffle
      +3

      Glad you like it. Be sure to read your prologue. It answers a lot of questions you might have.

      • PMmeyourlove
        +3

        Wait, can mods or subs, or "tribes" change the css?

        • the7egend
          +1

          Visual modifications are fairly limited and are unlocked based on your user level. It could do with some side bar customization, or at least a bit of header customization.

        • QuietKerfuffle
          +1

          I don't know. I have no interest in being a chief so I haven't created any tribes. They are working on an API to facilitate mobile apps.

  • Uaedaien
    +6

    I can't wait for the longtime users here to get butthurt. There was a fair amount of arrogance from some of the old reddit users towards the digg refugees.

    • [Deleted Profile]

      [This comment was removed]

    • ZanThrax
      +1

      Reddit was already changing before the Digg exodus, but the sudden increase in the userbase did correlate with a sudden decline in the quality of posts. Many of the other pre-exodus users took that to mean that all the Digg refugees were bad for the community, but it's just the natural consequence of a larger community.

    • FamousFellah
      +1

      I'm brand new here, but so far they seem quite nice! Hopefully that friendliness will continue while the community grows--it's one of the reasons I think I might just stay here.

  • patorian
    +5

    So is this the part where I say Hi I'm from Reddit?

    • folkrav
      +2

      If you want! :) Hello there!

  • ozimandeus
    +4

    Hello... I'm a RedditRefugee :-) anyone know how to start a subsnapzu ?

    • [Deleted Profile]

      [This comment was removed]

  • Olkeus
    +4

    Great idea. I'm a former lurker of Reddit, but I think I will participate a lot more on this site. It's beautiful!

    • Wolp
      +6

      Same here, I can actually see myself contributing here instead of just scrolling mindlessly.

      • jetpacmonkey
        +4

        Yeah I think it's because of how much smaller it is. I don't get the feeling that anything I say will inevitably get buried in an avalanche of cleverer people

        • thepoleman1 (edited 3 years ago)
          +1

          I agree. I think it's a combination of that and how this site seems to have a much more friendly community. Whereas on reddit there was a lot more hostility and arguing than friendly discussion. I've only been here a day, but so far I feel like this is a place where thoughts can be stated without worrying about getting downvoted.

    • adriankuno
      +3

      Same here! But this looks small enough and awesome enough to comment and contribute! Loving it so far.

    • folkrav
      +3

      It's actually pretty great! :)

      • Ralid
        +2

        With this community it feels tighter knit. I'm not just a small user, i'm a small user in a community that actually helps newcomers.

  • Cheesemangeur (edited 3 years ago)
    +4

    Really appreciate you guys making a megathread, it was a bit harder to navigate the /t/lounge with all the new posts, but it's also so nice to see so many people being friendly and saying hi :)

    I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier at one point; if you're unsure how something works, are curious about something, can't find something you're looking for, just ask! There are lots of us who are more than happy to help you guys.

    • folkrav
      +2

      I feel like most people that will stick here is the nice people. Smaller communities tend to stick together instead of battling like Reddit does. Being invite-only, I think it already filters out some trolls.

      • Cheesemangeur
        +3

        As you can see from my profile I've been here for less than a month, but I already feel like part of the community thanks to the support I've had and the friendliness of everyone I have encountered.

        Even if people disagree with each other, they still find a way to be civil about it, which is something that was not part of Reddit's culture (it was at some point though).

        We had a troll a bit more than a week ago, and he was quickly shut down by the admins. Pretty sure it would happen again, the admins here are very good with acting fast and communicating with the userbase.

        You seem to have caught on well already, looking forward to your evolution and growth in the community :)

        • folkrav
          +1

          Well that community seems more like my kind of place than Reddit, but I couldn't find an alternative that satisfied me. I'm more of a small community guy, except for IAmA, I was only subscribed to smaller subs. I like to have meaningful conversations, and try to generally respect people. It seems like this website is a good combination of my needs. I like it here!

          I'll definitely stick around and try to help this community to grow!

          • Cheesemangeur
            +1

            Glad to hear that, I expect a lot of people have a similar outlook.

  • bogdan (edited 3 years ago)
    +4

    Really enjoying the initiative. Though we won't mind having to reply in every single thread, it's nice to see the community getting involved and organizing itself.

    Make sure to say something about what you love doing / what you are interested in, maybe we can form a few new communities around here!

  • AlexMD
    +4

    I really am liking the experience system. Also from reddit, though I've been looking for an alternative for some time.

  • Maleficient
    +3

    Good afternoon everyone! So happy to be a part of a new community. Now I just need to focus on work instead of exploring.

  • UWOTRUDEGIRL
    +3

    I was on reddit for about 3 years, and never commented once because it felt really intimidating, but i'm really liking snapzu and everyone seems very friendly so hi and thanks for being so welcoming :)

    • canuck
      +2

      It's a great experience being a part of a community that's positive. Welcome!

  • Kysol
    +3

    Mega-Snap! (this was a discussion recently about improving Snapzu and posting duplicate content (not related to multiple "Hi I'm new" snaps, but more posting of the same article if there was say a terrorist attack. Rather than have the front page with 20+ articles about the same thing, to combine them into one group. Anyhoo...

    Yeah it would be nice to do that, but I wouldn't want to push people to do something they don't want to do.

    • folkrav
      +2

      I'm not for dictatorship, but I think we could show some civilized behavior by trying not to spam as a whole. That would be a way of limiting how much spam we put out and keeping the lounge readable and pleasant, without hijacking the whole tribe.

      • Kysol
        +1

        Yeah maybe using the sticky functionality, but also at the same time make it more... visible to new members, sort of like a spotlight "Say hi" thing. Although one upside is that it does give new users a warm fuzzy feeling to have members personally addressing them rather than getting lost in a deluge of posts under one snap.

        The dilemma, what to do, make things nice, alienate users. Let it get messy, drive away users...

    • KylarGrey (edited 3 years ago)
      +1

      I wonder if such a thing would be technically possible? A kind of 'meta-snap' that other snaps can be put into.

      • Kysol
        +1

        the discussion was that it might be a bit of work. Don't think it'll happen but probably under consideration. It's just amusing that the same sort of idea got mentioned a week after we were talking about it.

  • merz
    +3

    I'm loving this site!

  • dgam
    +3

    This site is an overwhelming, refreshing sense of a community. I look forward to sticking with this site on looks alone.

  • feyes
    +3

    I've been over here for a couple weeks and think it's infinitely better than Reddit.

  • UfoPu55y
    +3

    Re Create what we had.... re start ... (remember there is always an better alternative , ex if this do not work for us we find another one)

    • woodchipper
      +2

      I kind of hope that it doesn't just become Reddit again. I liked it there, but it was past time for me to move on.

      • eilyra
        +2

        Agreed. Would seem quite rude as well imposing a seemingly quite different culture on the users of this site.

    • folkrav
      +1

      Restart! For sure. Recreate? Not so sure! Let's make it a better place.

      • UfoPu55y
        +1

        Recreate as in the materials we had there and not the culture ..

  • blythe
    +3

    Hi, I'm from Reddit!