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Published 3 years ago with 60 Comments

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Conversation 20 comments by 9 users
  • BretsFan4Ever
    +11

    I don't really care for Trump nor would I ever want to see him elected President, but after reading what he said, I don't really see the issue here:

    "I like Mexico. I love the Mexican people. I do business with the Mexican people, but you have people coming through the border that are from all over. And they're bad. They're really bad," he said. "You have people coming in, and I'm not just saying Mexicans, I'm talking about people that are from all over that are killers and rapists and they're coming into this country.” Source

    What is not true about the above statment? What is so offensive or racist about it? He specifically says, "they're coming from all over", and, "I'm not just saying Mexicans". I mean think about it, anyone who wants in for any sort of nefarious reason can be smuggled by drug cartels up through Mexico and across the border with relative ease. Just an example, here's a quote from a border patrol agent about the whole issue:

    “It’s frustrating for all of us and there’s no doubt that we have OTMs [Other Than Mexicans] coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia and other parts of the world that we are very concerned with — these guys won’t be turning themselves into Border Patrol like the family units or children. I expect we’ll see more the OTMs of special interest this year and next, now that they know they can get in easier and they won’t be turned back home.” Source

    Now I highly doubt that people are coming from Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, ect.... to make a better life and appreciate America and what not. So what I don't understand is why is everyone out for blood over comments that are for the most part, pretty damn factual. I mean I understand the backlash in the news as theres always motivating factors on spinning a story in one direction or another, but why the hell is the general public buying into this bullshit? Trump is no saint, but he didn't exactly call for racial genocide either. He simply told the truth.

    • worthlessgalaxy
      +14

      So I think you left out some very important context on those quotes that lead to the outrage.

      When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.

      This leaves out that really, most of the immigrates coming over illegally probably aren't bad people. He implied that all Mexican's that come over are bad people. He also implies that Mexico is sending them over.

      His biggest failure was his wording and then his double down. Clamming that the Mexican government pressured Univision to drop it's contract. He might have had some fair points, but they got lost on delivery and he refused to acknowledge his mistake.

      • BretsFan4Ever
        +3

        I posted that quote as opposed to the former because it was a reiteration of his stance that he had stated shortly after and one that he still seemed to be receiving just as much flak for. I apologize if it came off as misleading in any way as that was not my intention. I was simply trying to post the view he held that seemed to be causing this uproar. I agree with you 100 percent that his delivery was atrocious and seems to be at the root of the problem here. Obviously there is a problem with crime among some of the immigrant population, aside from the crime of coming here illegally, but to paint the majority as thugs and rapists seems like a bit of a misstep. However, the issue I still hold with the backlash he's receiving is that while the initial comments may have come off as a bit harsh, he did further clarify his statement and I believe that is where the outrage should have ceased. His delivery was off, we've all had those moments. It's no reason to crucify someone. As I said before, I don't even like Trump. But this whole situation comes across as outrage for the sake outrage.

        • worthlessgalaxy
          +4

          Ok I seemed to have missed that reiteration. I saw a clip of him talking several days later (on fox I think?) where he stated something to the effect of "x% of women are raped crossing the boarder and the rapist have o be coming from somewhere". This is a very poor wording of his quote, so take it with a grain of salt, but he was again implying that a large percentage of the immigrates are criminals. I think this has been blown out of proportion but I really think he is also feeding it. It seems like he will clarify some and then backtrack back to the former statement. I almost think he is doing it on purpose, but I would have no idea what his goal would be. I don't think he is a viable candidate period. I don't think he understands politics, the media, or public relations.

          • BretsFan4Ever
            +4

            * I don't think he understands politics, the media, or public relations.*

            Absolutely, I think you hit the nail on the head. He strikes me as an out of touch old businessman who doesn't really have any business running the country. I haven't watched any video on the subject, have just been sticking to reading his quotes, so I missed the one you mentioned about the women being raped and what not. I would like to believe that he is wrong, and since I don't have any hard numbers on the issue in front of me, i'd have to give the immigrants the benefit of the doubt which is really what he should have done as well. Again though, i'm not even sure if that's really waht he meant at this point or if he just poorly worded it as his fumbling is causing it all just criss cross into this giant mess. I know how politically correct and sensitive everyone is in this day and age and I still believe this is a major contributing factor, however there's no denying that he is also at fault in this whole ordeal as anyone running for high office needs to be able to convey their messages in a clear and concise manner, and than stick by said messages when pushed on the issue.

    • FRIK
      +7

      It's interesting-really when you read what he is saying. He's arguing for better national security at the borders. He certainly did commit some gaffes, but his message is one trying to protect Americans from crime (Maybe some spillover from the drug war in Northern Mexico).

      But it's a politician, so who knows his end goal anyway.

      • shadow1515
        +4

        I heard a really interesting interview with a former president of Mexico on a podcast, I think it may have been Freakonomics, where he basically said flat out that his primary goal had been to knock down as many borders as possible between the North American nations, and that in fact there was a deal seriously in the works to allow for much greater economic permeability (for both money and labor) at the Mexico-US border before 9/11 totally redirected the US government's focus.

        That has no bearing on whether what he said was racist, but it might explain which Mexican businesses don't like it and may try to spin it that way; if this was a thing that was seriously in the works as the former president said, there may be a lot of powerful people in Mexico who are kind of upset that it got put on indefinite hold.

        • FRIK
          +3

          Your point is sound. I agree definitely.

    • dannycdannydo
      +5

      "Now I highly doubt that people are coming from Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, ect.... to make a better life and appreciate America and what not."

      Why would you highly doubt that? These are some pretty shitty war-torn countries, and there are thousands of migrants trying to escape and make a better life.

      • stareyedgirl
        +3

        That's the first thing I thought as well. It would be hard to come from those countries and not have a better life here. What is so difficult to believe about that?

        And honestly, it is incredibly hard for anyone to do so legally. There are some really interesting stories about Afghani people who helped American soldiers against the taliban at great personal cost, but even they can't even get into the country legally to keep themselves and their families from being killed in retaliation.

        When it comes to protecting your family and making a better life for themselves, people are willing to do some crazy stuff - in the grand scope of things, illegally entering a wealthy nation in search of a better life isn't even that crazy of a thing to do. Considering how wealthy America is compared to many other countries, it's much more likely that people entering this country illegally want to become one of us, not kill us.

      • BretsFan4Ever
        +3

        Look, i'm not saying that there aren't some families or individuals coming from those countries looking for a better life. Obviously there are always going to be outliers from the majority and exceptions to the rule. What I'm saying is that it's pretty safe to assume that, for the most part, people coming here illegally from countries that hold a notoriously hostile view of this nation are probably not crossing the borders with the best intentions.

        • dannycdannydo
          +4

          But I'm saying the opposite... The overwhelming majority are not coming with 'bad intentions' and it's totally ridiculous to say so. I live in the UK where I suspect the problem of Afghani and Pakistani immigrants is much more acute given that it's easier to get in here than the US. And Afghanis and Pakistanis both have extremely good reasons to resent Britain! But it's ridiculous to say that the majority of them coming in have bad intentions... The majority are coming in because otherwise they would literally die.

          Yes you will hear about hate preachers and British born terrorists, but let me tell you, if the majority of British Pakistanis came with bad intentions on Britain... We'd be pretty fucked. The majority live peaceful lives, send their kids to school, and get on with things. And as far as the illegal immigrants are concerned, if I was born into such a shitty situation as there were, you can guarantee I'd be trying to hope on a truck from Calais as well.

        • shadow1515
          +2

          That's presupposing that everyone in the country has the same worldview, which is folly at best and disingenuous at worst.

      • Teakay
        +2

        The US may be far from perfect but I don't doubt for a second that it's better than many places in the world. Now, don't get me wrong, I completely understand that I am young, naive, and lack a full understanding of the effects of immigration to the US. I've always been told that too much immigration causes problems for everyone in the country, and I'm sure that in some ways that must be true. However, I can't bring myself to want to deny immigration rights to anyone wanting to make a better life here. I can't bring myself to feel more entitled to the opportunity to build a career and a life in the US than anyone else that wants to try, especially when I was lucky enough to be born into a better standard of living than a lot of people in the world probably were. The US was built by immigrants, and I'm not sure who has the right to deny people entry into the country. I'm sure it must be done at some point, somehow, but that's a decision I don't think I could ever morally reconcile.

        I guess that means I should just stay out of politics.

    • Pantera
      +3

      It's just the left twisting what any opposition says into politically incorrect stuff. Of course people shouldn't be allowed to just enter all willy nilly. I am personally fascinated by latin culture, and geography but you cannot ignore the fact that there are drugs and guns run through the border by cartels and the like.

      • mikeBnimble
        +7

        I think it's more than just a gaff. He made some remarks that insulted a large group of people, and then chose to double down on those remarks every time they came up. When NBC and Univision cuts ties with him he accused them of supporting illegal immigration or some such nonsense. He also threatened to sue them. If this is how he acts in the first days of his campaign he has no business getting into politics.

        • Pantera
          +2

          If he had have taken back what he had said he'd have been wrong too. It was kind of no win when he opened his mouth.

          • worthlessgalaxy
            +3

            He could have clarified without taking back. They are a lot better ways to word his comments.

            • Pantera
              +4

              It was a pretty bad wording on an explosive topic.

            • worthlessgalaxy
              +2
              @Pantera -

              I agree. I think this will follow him for a very long time.

  • ProtoJazz
    +16

    I honestly don't know if he really meant to use the exact words he used, or if he's just the kind of person that once he's fucked up can't admit it.

    If you listen to his speech that caused this, at that part he really starts stumbling on his words and having a hard time fiding what he's trying to say.

    And his core point was pretty reasonable, at least how I interpreted "people who enter this country becuse they are not allowed to enter legally, are probably not people we want" . I mean yeah, if someone can't enter legally because they are a murderer or something, Then I'd rather they don't just enter anyway.

    I mean there's more to it, and it's not just that simple, but I kind of get what he was trying to say, and it's not totally a bad thing.

    • QuietKerfuffle
      +15

      That's ignoring the complete bureaucratic nightmare that is legal immigration when your natural country isn't the best at record keeping. He lumped hard working illegals in with his tone.

      • ProtoJazz
        +11

        Im not even sure he fully understands what hes even talking about. Both with his political work and buisness it sounds like he just makes it up as he goes along and has enough money that it doesnt matter if he makes a mistake to him.

        There is so much more to things that he was even thinking about, hes basically just playing politition because he doesnt have any better way of spending his time

    • xef6
      +4

      Mostly agree with you... but, perception does matter. And he did a pretty slumpy job at delivering his thoughts, if what you say really is the case.

      • ProtoJazz
        +6

        He really did, and I dont think hes cut out to be a political leader. Honestly I think hes barely cut out to be in charge of buisness management.

        • mikeBnimble
          +4

          Considering that he inherited a vast amount of wealth and has only held on to it by filing for bankruptcy again and again, I completely agree with you. He has no place in politics and is quickly losing his standing in the business world. Latinos are a huge demographic and he just really insulted them.

  • Nerdeiro
    +13

    Surprise, surprise. He breaks one the biggest taboos of society and expects no consequences?

    In an age where republicans are desperate to attract minority votes, he alienates one of the largest monority groups, plus the whites who despise racism.

    Well done Trump.

    • drunkenninja
      +5

      I guess he figured business and politics don't go hand in hand.

      • Nerdeiro
        +7

        Actualy, I'm of the opinion that business and politics go pretty well together, see Condoleeza Rice, Dick Chenney, Michael Bloomberg and so many others. What doesn't work for both business and popitics is a loud mouth plus coprolalia, those with the ridiculous comb over seems the defining characteristics of Donald Trump.

        • drunkenninja
          +6

          My statement was in regards to the repercussions. Should have been more clear, as I agree with you on this.

  • Triseult
    +12

    I really have a hard time empathizing with a person who willingly and knowingly demonized a people as a branding maneuver. Trump had this coming.

    I was in Mexico until last week, and the Mexicans throughout the country are painfully aware of what he said. It's sad to say that Mexicans are not that shocked by what he said. It's just the kind of stuff they hear all the time coming from the U.S., except this time it makes the news.

  • jmcs
    +8

    So he finally admitted that this is all about his "brand"?

    • kvn
      +7

      Negative publicity is a real thing, isn't it?

    • Elbeske
      +6

      I seriously thought that Trump might just be running for publicity, or maybe just to make the other candidates look better in comparison. If he seriously thinks that he can win this election, he's got another thing coming.

      • Teska
        +2

        I cringe to think of candidates needing Trump along side them to make them look better.

  • massani
    +7

    Man he is so unbelievably detached from the rest of the world.

    • casuallynoted
      +5

      His politifacts page shows that too. Not a single truth and over ten "pants on fire" lies.

      • massani
        +6

        Reminds me of the whole 'birther' debacle when Obama was running for re-election. Ugh.

        • spoderman
          +4

          Excuse my ignorance, but what was he trying to really achieve? I'm a little out of the loop on this one, and what a quick Google search tells me is a little to crazy/simple to be the whole story.

          • GKNS
            +2

            I think it must be the same as all of his other political appearances, i.e increasing his awareness in the public consciousness. I really can't imagine that he is truly dumb enough to make some of those comments without realizing how ignorant and obnoxious they are.

        • casuallynoted
          +3

          Exactly! Like what even was that?

  • Espeon
    +6

    He is literally so delusional, wow. He thinks what he said is totally legitimate and cannot wrap his mind around why it would make anyone upset. He didn't budge an inch after all these repercussions — didn't question himself even a little.

    • DirtyCommie
      +3

      I'm not even convinced that he is a real person. I have to wonder how someone this unhinged from reality managed to get to the position that he is in.

      • kraftykitty
        +4

        He's never really had to face reality - he inherited millions from his father, and has managed to hold onto his millions by declaring bankruptcy multiple times and running companies into the ground without ever touching his personal wealth.

        • Teska
          +4

          And this is the problem. All these people tossing their hat in the politics ring who firstly have no business being there, and secondly have no knowledge of how the world outside their bubble actually works. First World Problems have nothing on that.

  • Cloptologist
    +4

    He still has my vote. He's the only candidate so far to say what needs to be said about illegal immigrants. This country will let any illegal Hispanic into this county and give them more benefits and opportunity than it's natural born citizens get. Meanwhile we consider anyone who even remotely looks middle eastern are automatically terrorists.

    We need to focus on making America better for all Amercians, and not the daycare center for the world.

    • FamousFellah
      +7

      Illegal immigrants provide cheap labor for jobs most of us wouldn't even consider working. They tend to be poor, so they can be expected to contribute to the economy by spending a large percentage of their income, and it's very difficult for them to escape poverty due to the difficulty of getting a job that pays well without education and legal status. That's not "more benefits and opportunity" than natural-born citizens. The border crossing is also dangerous, and many illegal immigrants die of dehydration and heat exhaustion crossing the desert. I wouldn't call that "letting them in."

      But the real problem--one that I haven't heard a single major candidate discuss--is the root cause of illegal immigration: shitty conditions in other countries. There's a reason we aren't worried about illegal Canadian immigrants. They either don't exist or are exceedingly rare because there's really no incentive for Canadians to move to the US illegally. Trying to stop illegal immigration at the border is like trying to deal with a brain tumor by popping some Ibuprofen for the pain. The symptoms might feel less severe, but the problem won't go away until we deal with the issues that cause it. Trump is just one more candidate who won't discuss or deal with the true issues behind illegal immigration, but at least the others haven't put their feet in their mouths so much.

      • stareyedgirl
        +5

        This is why every conversation about illegal immigration in this country is doomed to failure. The elephant in the room is that when you stick a wealthy nation full of privilege next to a much poorer nation with many fewer opportunities for its citizens, the ones from the poor side of the line are always going to want to be on the not-poor side of the line.

        Why on Earth wouldn't they?

        So it has always seemed incredibly tone deaf to me to decry and vilify people wanting to come here and make a better life for their families. If the roles were reversed, there would be plenty of people on our side trying to do the same. Of course they want what we have. Honestly, we didn't do anything special to get what we have. We were just born on the fortunate side of an invisible arbitrary line between two pieces of land.

  • spoderman
    +4

    As a European, I never fail to be impressed by the crazyness of the US presidential election.

    • FRIK
      +4

      As an American, I never fail to be impressed by the craziness of different European countries' policies. Greece and Italy (mainly under Berlusconi) not crazy, wow. Switzerland banning minarets, and France banning the wearing of religious iconography in for people in schools is pretty wild too.

      It makes you wonder, "Maybe I don't have to look across the Atlantic to see crazy people in government or running in the government."

      • spoderman
        +5

        Please don't get me wrong, I definitly didn't mean to imply that Americans are crazy. What I meant it that politics in the US are such gigantic money- and advertisement loaded events that you get the impression that it's all just a huge meaingless show for the peoples entertiainment. Comical characters like Trum and dynasties like the Clintons or the Bushs kinda complete the image.

        • kraftykitty (edited 3 years ago)
          +5

          Bread and circuses, my friend. Bread and circuses.

          • spoderman
            +3

            Huh? Did I miss something?

            Have I dropped some popcorn?

            • kraftykitty
              +5

              "Bread and circuses" (or bread and games; from Latin: panem et circenses) is metonymic for a superficial means of appeasement.

            • FRIK
              +4

              No, you're good. "Bread and circuses" is a phrase meaning that people want and are satisfied by huge spectacles and free food.

            • stareyedgirl
              +2

              Wikipedia page for Bread and Circuses

              From the article:

              In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the generation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through diversion; distraction; or the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace,[1] as an offered "palliative." Its originator, Juvenal, used the phrase to decry the selfishness of common people and their neglect of wider concerns.[2][3][4] The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the commoner.

        • FRIK
          +2

          I agree to a sense. I'm also saying you can see something of the same over in Europe and, to an extent, the world.

  • Six
    +3

    Of course he is.

  • Holymanta
    +3

    Be surprised when you call mexican, drugs runners bad stuff starts to happen. I cant believe his presidental run is serious

  • Qukatt
    +1

    hah, he's such a muppet as he continues to think he can trump about pissing people off and not have it affect his business. but i guess Scotland was too small to make much of a dent so go Mexico! You hurt him in the only place he gives a toss.

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