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To the newcomers on Snapzu : Please remember that the downvote button is not your personal dislike or disagree button

Please don't downvote topics your are uninterested in or disagree with. The downvote button is there for users to self moderate harmfull or offensive content. If you disagree with a topic please ignore it or even better tell people why and engage in some healthy discourse but don't just downvote because you can.
Edit : Since /u/massani brought up fixing this very thing here earlier. Please comment on any possible fixes there.

3 years ago by kigurame with 83 comments

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Conversation 6 comments by 5 users
  • jmax
    +29

    I think the arrows are a design flaw. Many people spend their time on Facebook and other social sites where they "like" things, so when users see the arrows they think of them as like and dislike buttons. I think it would be best if the downvote arrows were removed and instead there was a report button since that is what it seems the downvotes are actually used for.

    • akpak
      +3

      I don't think "report" is the right language either though. That implies that you're asking moderation staff to do something about it.

      Things I will "downvote": Irrelevant, incorrect (ie statements easily contradicted by cited sources), hateful, or otherwise unproductive.

      However, that doesn't mean I'd want those posts removed. I don't need to "report" those things, but I do want to help "sink" them.

    • Boop
      +3

      This is the perfect chance for Snapzu to get the report button right. I really hope they attempt to constantly improve the design and experience of the website, unlike Reddit. The downvote button on Reddit has always been a flaw in the UI. A button or icon should never need explanation, its behavior should feel natural and perform as expected.

    • [Deleted Profile] (edited 3 years ago)

      [This comment was removed]

    • DoctorStupid
      +1

      This is a good idea

  • drunkenninja
    +48

    If we can all agree that the down vote button is a "moderation tool" instead of a "I don't agree with your opinion tool" we will all be better off and it will promote a far better community experience where unpopular opinions are discussed and hashed out instead of downvoted into oblivion. It would make general interaction so much more interesting.

    • canuck
      +16

      Personally I think a hivemind like community is boring, cultish and sadly self congratulating. If we can have this on a plaque somewhere I would be happy.

    • kigurame
      +5

      Exactly :) I was wondering if you'd be around

    • kigurame
      +4

      Think we can have something like this stickied in /t/lounge ?

    • BarnyardOwl
      +3

      Even if unpopular opinions aren't downvoted, what difference does it make if they don't get upvoted while all similar comments do? It leaves them in the same place: at the bottom.

      • xg549
        +5

        I think the difference is knowing when to simply take no action rather than downvoting. Upvotes are not required in the absence of a downvote. Some things may be best left unvoted on.

    • massani
      +3

      Truer words have never been spoken.

    • Rothulfossil (edited 3 years ago)
      +1

      It'd be nice if we can all agree on that, but that's an inherent problem with an increasingly large community. I'm afraid we won't be able to get the "crowd" to agree to use the arrow properly. I don't know of any site that has been successful in that endeavor.

      Say people view the up vote as a button to say, "Yay, this gives me a positive feeling!" If a snap makes you laugh, you agree with its point, or you think it's worth being seen for any other reason, you're going to hit the up vote. Of course, if there's another button simply pointing down, it's natural to use it for the opposite reason. If a snap isn't contributing value, makes you angry, and/or you disagree, your instinct is to use the negative button.

      It's really just a matter of perception, and I think that could be changed by moving away from the up-arrow/down-arrow system.

      Edit: I do like that the arrows aren't shown until you hover over the comment, though! It's a subtle way to encourage reading the comment and thinking about it before actually making a judgement.

    • sea
      +1

      SO WRONG, DOWNVO...wait.

  • blademaster0182
    +24

    Unfortunately, this is a problem that won't go away. On Reddit, the rules on downvoting is the same: The downvote button isn't the disagree button. However, plenty of people use it that way anyways. Worst, you're getting a flood of reddit-refugees, not all of which respected the downvote button there either. It would be nice if Snapzu found a way around this and I hope they do.

    • kaban
      +13

      I agree. As long as downvoting is "free" people will do it. There needs to be an incentive to not downvote. Maybe have downvoting cost some small amount of XP (similar to how StackOverflow does it)?

      • rti9
        +10

        I disagree with the XP idea because of my brief experience with Voat. A system that only allows downvotes through the quantity of activity only strengthens powerusers and takes the voice of lurkers (who are the majority). The people who karmawhore end up with too much power over the system.

        But I like its suggestion of when to downvote:

        Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect.

        • skully (edited 3 years ago)
          +2

          That downvoting guideline feels to me like one that will encourage reddit style downvotes. My theory (as someone who basically never downvoted on reddit) is that the downvote problem starts with people who think they are downvoting "egregiously sloppy" comments that actually weren't, and those downvotes create the impression in naive users that voting is to indicate whether you agree or disagree.

          That's why I'm glad to see so much discussion of this subject during what seems to be a large influx of new users. It's hard for a site to propagate it's culture in that situation, but luckily most of my fellow migratees seem to be respecting the culture that attracted us here.

          • rti9
            +3

            Yeah, I agree. Most of the time people probably go with their own interpretation of what the downvote should be to them. I really wonder if just changing the downvote to a report button would solve these issues. Something for the Snapzu team to test.

        • 3rdWheel
          0

          But people who participate should have more voting power because they're contributing a lot more than the lurkers. That's why Snapzu is the way it is too. You can passively gain XP by voting, but you'll never gain rep or a lot of XP, so good luck getting to 50.

          • rti9
            +3

            This sounds like the "job creators" arguments used by politicians. The lurkers are just as important as any one else.

            That's why Snapzu is the way it is too. You can passively gain XP by voting, but you'll never gain rep or a lot of XP, so good luck getting to 50.

            From what I´ve experienced until now, Snapzu is first and foremost a community where all members can participate equally. The way you word it makes it look like a mere game to gain fictional points.

            • 3rdWheel
              +1

              I disagree. If everyone lurked, the website as we know it would be a barren wasteland. If everyone commented and posted snaps, there would be an eternal stream of content. Hyperbole, sure, but it demonstrates how much more important participators are than lurkers.

              ....a community where all members can participate equally.

              To an extent, that's true. But higher leveled members can downvote more, join more tribes, follow more people, and basically have a more involved relationship with the website, whereas new members have to work their way up to that. Though it's true, anyone can comment at any time.

              And really, anything's a game if you approach it with the right attitude.

            • rti9
              +2
              @3rdWheel -

              The thing is that Snapzu will hopefully come to a point where Reddit had reached, where people won´t need to comment and post snaps to achieve a constant stream of content. It was unnecessary for me to post links at Reddit because almost everything I thought was interesting enough to be posted there had already been posted by someone else. Even in the comments it was quite common that another user had already expressed similar thoughts. I am only more active at Snapzu than at Reddit because it is still a small community and at this moment it is better for everyone to contribute.

      • ofest
        +3

        I see where you're going with this, but I'm not sure an XP "fee" is the way (or the only way) that I would go about this.

        Perhaps stigmatize down-voting by publishing the number of downvotes (or a percentage of down/up) made by a user in their profile (color coded green, yellow, red?). Conscientious people don't generally want to be seen as assholes.

        Also, the idea of requiring a reason for a downvote may in itself be enough to curb old downvote habits. It will let users from elsewhere know that this place is not like their old place.

      • DastardlyVandal
        +3

        That system seems like something that would adapt well over here, actually. It might be worth for the devs to cherry pick some ideas from Stack Overflow and apply it here, in hopes of curbing some of the old Reddit habits that are going on.

        Blacking out different opinions (outside of blatant racism/hate speech) is something that shouldn't be followed, just because it doesn't fit in the mold of things here.

        This community is largely about discussion, not a house of perpetually repeated jokes and memes for the sake of quick upvotes. Maybe we could also add some popup dialogues with the upvote and downvote buttons that go something along the lines of "Insightful post!"/"Doesn't contribute to discussion.", to push things in the right way a bit more?

      • BarnyardOwl
        +1

        I don't really like StackOverflow's system for downvoting. Sometimes content needs to be downvoted, and there shouldn't be a barrier in those cases. Though I do quite like this solution to the problem.

    • cmagnificent
      +6

      The idea is being floated for mandatorily providing a reason for a down vote. Drunkenninja stated in an ideas for snapzu thread on the topic that they're looking to expand the functionality of "reason for down vote" dialogue and that they would have to have a long discussion about making it mandatory, but the idea is out there.

    • potateHoe
      +4

      I completely agree, seeing dissenting opinions can expand your knowledge on a topic regardless if you agree or not.

    • Dotems (edited 3 years ago)
      +1

      I think the difference between reddiquette and the rules here are that here it is actually explicitly spelled out that down votes are not for things you disagree with where are on reddit and this is what always annoyed me is people saw reddiquette as a suggestion and would always argue it as such when ever this issue came up.

      I think the solution not to give more transparency to the community as a whole or to put some cost on downvoting but to give more information and transparency to the mods and other community leaders. That way the people who made the rules for each tribe and who have the clearest understanding of how they should be enforced can look at what is occurring in there tribe and do something about it if necessary.

      Edit: As an addendum to this if my above suggestion was implemented an easy for mods to enforce it would be to add to the rules of their tribe that all downvotes must accompanied by an explanation that way when mods are needing to deal with a complaint about down votes they can easily see if someone has downvoted and not left a reason and they can deal with it as they see fit. This is in reply to the suggestion to force people to give an explanation when downvoting.

    • mattlbeck
      +1

      Some redditors even have a tendency to report comments and links that they "just don't like". If its free to do, regardless of the guidelines, a portion of the community will try to abuse it. The suggestions of making down voting come with a cost are definitely worth considering.

  • Holymanta
    +7

    I wonder if taking out the downvotes might solve the abuse problem

    • ZombiePharmer (edited 3 years ago)
      +8

      Up vote button for quality content visibility and a report button with reason drop down for community moderation?

    • utesred
      +7

      The downvote option is actually a legitimate thing to have, if used correctly. As Drunkenninja pointed out in the highest rated comment on this post, the downvote is a moderation tool, and not a dislike button. It's an important thing to have around in a number of situations. Posts placed in the wrong tribe, NSFW materials with a forgotten tag, and spam should be downvoted. If users who downvote leave a note as to why, it can really help newer members understand what they're doing wrong.

      • [Deleted Profile]

        [This comment was removed]

      • yummynapalm
        +2

        I actually like the downvote and leave a note as to why. Like anytime you downvoted, it would prompt you to leave a reason, and wouldn't let you continue unless you left a reason. I think it should also be visible so people can see if it's legitimate or if you're just being a jerk.

    • SailorBeeKitty (edited 3 years ago)
      +4

      This. I think getting rid of the downvote option all together would be good.

      • Juka
        +5

        But then we become facebook. I stick to my solution to giving it to people after they reach a certain level

  • Cheesemangeur
    +7

    The fact that this snap already has 3 downvotes is just annoying. What would be the reason for downvoting this snap, apart from being reactionary?

    I've received 10 downvotes on my comments from Saturday. I don't know which ones, I don't know why, but what I know is that none of my comments broke any of the Snapzu rules and warranted those downvotes. It's pretty disappointing that a small % of the new "Reddit Refugees" is not adapting and making it harder for the rest of the community who is happy to adapt here. I'm also a Redditor, not part of this new wave however, so it was easier to adapt as there were less of us trickling in.

    I'm hoping in a week's time things will have become better, if not I know I can count on the mod team to tweak a few things like they mentioned so that there will be little downvote abuse.

    • kigurame
      +2

      Honestly i expected more of them simply because of the people that don't want to hear it. I'd say the fact that it's only 3 is promising

      • Cheesemangeur
        +2

        3 in only 4 hours though. Hopefully that number doesn't grow, if it does it just proves the point of the snap.

        • kigurame
          +4

          Very true. I doubt the downvoters actually read the snap. I suspect it's more of a reflex redditism "don't tell me what to-do i'm going to downvote because i can"

          • AdelleChattre
            +3

            There’s no surer way to rack up downvotes at Reddit than to ever complain about downvotes.

  • Firetail
    +6

    I especially hate those who make a point to continually go into a new tribe and downvote everything because they have their own agenda or just dislike somebody. Those people need to get a life and a better hobby.

    • utesred
      +2

      Yessshhh....is that a thing? That's just dumb. :(

  • nicoscope
    +5

    It'll be hard, because many people see the arrow pointing down as an automatic "punish" button. And many people get the urge to punish anyone that expresses something they dislike.

    Maybe have a downvote counter in the profile or something. So other users can see who systematically downvote others.

    • kigurame
      +3

      You might be on to something there. Maybe just changing it visually might make a difference it would def be a interesting social experiment.

      • nicoscope
        +2

        Maybe... I dunno, something like moral choices in Mass Effect? Your upvote/downvote ratio pattern would have an effect on your avatar/labels.

        • cmagnificent
          +4

          Maybe it's just my experience with Mass Effect, but those changes didn't stop me from doing a renegade femshep run, which was almost criminally fun.

          I was thinking maybe an up vote arrow and red x for rules violations or out of place. Just include some kind of visual cue that "down voting" is not the opposite of "up voting" in its intended use really.

  • VoyagerXyX
    +5

    I feel like a solid solution to the down vote dilemma would be to just hold people accountable for their down votes. If you hover over the down vote button a list of usernames would pop up. If you keep seeing the same name again and again and again and again and again, you know you have a problem user and that can be dealt with. Non anon down voting would definitely make members who value their account and reputation think twice about abusing the tool, everyone wins.

    • ToixStory
      +3

      I was just thinking something like this. That way, if something is justifiably downvoted you have nothing to fear, and if something is downvoted out of pettiness or spite it's easy to see who were the people who did it.

      • VoyagerXyX
        +2

        Yes, and of course repercussions would follow. If there are not consequences it doesn't matter how hard it is to break the rules.

        • ToixStory
          +1

          It'd be nice to see something like if one person abuses the downvote button they'd be treated like the people who abuse the report button on forums; kicked or banned after a warning.

  • TheDylantula
    +5

    Now, here's where I have a question. I've used reddit for a long time, but I never used the downvote button there just for disagreeing with someone. Now, I did use it if I posted my own opinion and someone was a dick to me over said opinion. Would that be considered a legitimate use of the downvote button?

    • picklefingers
      +10

      I would argue that if the person was just being a dick the downvote is justified. If they are only acting like that, then they aren't adding to the conversation. However, if they are giving an opinion in a rude way, I was just not upvote them, but not downvote them because they are still adding to the conversation.

    • kigurame
      +2

      I would'nt really consider that a valid use unless it was really harmfull to the post or violated any of the harassment rules. The best thing todo in that case is just walk away from the conversation. That said we do expect users to be respectful so i guess it's a toughy.

      • TheDylantula
        +5

        Alright. I'll just avoid downvotes unless it's spam/abuse, etc., I think. Keep the atmosphere positive :D

        • utesred
          +4

          I also think just ignoring the dickish responses are the best method. In some circumstances, that downvote is almost something to be celebrated. They automatically know that someone saw their dickish comment and got ticked off. I'd prefer to let them wonder if anyone even read it at all.

  • Zeus (edited 3 years ago)
    +4

    The majority of people are going to use downvote to disagree, etiquette be damned.

    I say we just get rid of the downvote button entirely.

    Think about it, almost all legitimate uses of a downvote button can be handled via Report. If a comment is spam, inappropriate, threats, etc, you Report it. If you just disagree with someone... well, you can move on, or upvote someone you do agree with.

    True, if the only options are Upvote or Report, mods might get pestered by frivolous reports. But repeat "report button abusers" could be dealt with -- that's pretty much how it works around the web.

    And that way, popular opinions will rise to the top. Unpopular opinions wouldn't rise, but at least they won't be buried, either.

    Edit: The default "Report" option could be, "I strongly disagree with this comment." Such reports would be filed in the appropriate place, a paper shredder.

    • jmcs
      +3

      Do you know how much effort people put on building their own special little bubble to avoid other people's opinions? /jk

      I agree the downvote button does more harm than good.

      • Zeus (edited 3 years ago)
        +3

        I agree the downvote button does more harm than good.

        Yup. It's just too easy to downvote people for the wrong reasons.

        Plus, the upvote and downvote buttons are right next to each other, but have vastly different purposes.

        Everyone's okay with using Upvote to say, "Yeah, I agree!" It's even encouraged: Low effort "This" type commenters are usually instructed to just use Upvote that way. But the Downvote button, despite being right next to it, has a totally different purpose. Downvote isn't disagree, Downvote is like this neighborhood watch program, where we're supposed to point out shady behavior.

        It's just not very intuitive.

  • Juka
    +3

    Why dont you get rid of the down button, and give it to users after they reach a certain level on snapzu?

  • Tadaima
    +3

    I generally only downvote when someone makes a completely false statement or is being an outright troll. But I haven't actually downvoted anyone on this site yet.

  • Qukatt
    +3

    But i can still use the upvote button as a personal "I've read this comment now" button right?

  • kvn
    +2

    You guys should check out league of legends reddit section.

    • Cheesemangeur
      +2

      Did you mean to post that somewhere else?

      • Zeus
        +1

        I think kvn might be referring to a CSS popup when you hover over the downvote button there, a quick reminder about what the button is really for, sadly easy to overlook in the heat of the "I don't agree with that guy!" moment.

        • kvn
          +1

          Unfortunately, you're incorrect. League of Legends players are known to be very...salty. The entire community is known as THE worst gaming community right now. Their reddit section reflects that. I once made a comment about how I believed that I didn't like one of the characters, and I got 50 downvotes overnight.

          • Zeus (edited 3 years ago)
            +1

            To clarify, I just guessed that you were referring to the popup that reminds people what downvotes are for. I never said I thought that sort of thing actually worked.

            I just don't think friendly reminders work on people who downvote to disagree.

  • KingMe
    +2

    I never even knew it was for something else! I'll stick to the rules here rather than the learned behavior I gained at an alt site.

  • i208khonsu
    +2

    It's whatever people choose it to be. Some people want it to be their own personal dislike/disagree button, and will use it that way. Making a daily FYI post about it is not going to change how people typically behave on the internet.

    For instance I'm sure you disagree/dislike my comment right here. There's a down arrow right there for you to click on! Go ahead and give it a try!

  • ClarkKent
    +1

    One of the best parts about SnapZu is on the discussions I have been apart of, even if my opinion isn't the popular one I haven't got down voted into oblivion!

  • Fooferhill
    +1

    My suggestion is that this be really clear up front somehow as one of the first bits of info to hit you after sign up. I think it's taking people a little time to adjust and cast off old ways -in the mean time the down vote has been unleashed.

  • Cobbydaler
    +1

    More and more downvotes for no reason going on. Any way to make a welcome note to new members reinforce the ethos of Snapzu?

    • kigurame
      +2

      Yeah we need a ethics sticky not just the rules.

  • oystein
    +1

    While I do agree, I think that a lot of people will not use it as such. The only way to avoid improper usage of a tool is to to remove the tool, not to tell people online how to use it, unfortunately.

  • 3rdWheel
    +1

    So here's a possibly dumb question: Why are we making such a big deal about it? I get that downvoting mindlessly is looked down upon, but everyone seems blatantly offended when their comments/posts get 1-3 downvotes. If you're getting 2x-4x the amount of up votes, then what's one or two downvotes really going to hurt? There's already a limit to how many downvotes people can give in a day, so there's absolutely no way a person can be vote brigaded.

    So again I ask: Why put so much effort into this topic?

    • spaceghoti
      +3

      It's about community. We don't want to encourage the sort of behavior that causes problems elsewhere. We don't want to create a hivemind environment where people wrap themselves in their bubbles and never get exposed to contrary ideas. Anonymous downvotes simply to express disagreement or punishment is part of the problem.

  • ToixStory
    +1

    I'm happy to say I haven't even felt the need to downvote anything in the day I've been here, and apparently received only 1 downvote for my comments, which is far less than the more reactionary reddit tends to do. I really hope it continues this way, because my biggest fear is that former redditors who don't want to adapt to this site's community will instead use the downvote community to filter it into a reddit 2.0, which just be sad.