8 years ago
53
Former Reddit CEO Yishan Wong delivers crushing comment to Reddit community. "We tried to let you govern yourselves and you failed"
AYYYYYY LMAO How's everyone doing? This is AWESOME! There's something I neglected to tell you all this time ("executive privilege"), but I'm...
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I quit. I'm officially done with it all. I'm done with reddit and I'm done with the meta drama. I've been trying to stay objective for the past month, but I'm trying so hard just to find what the hell the truth is.
If what Yishan Wong is saying is true, then I apologize to Ellen Pao. While I never participated in that shit show hate brigade, I believed the rumors and I'm sorry. If Yishan is lying and this is all just another power trip of his, then I just don't really care. I'm tired of the reddit drama. I'm been following this for far too long for me to care while it descends to this level of bullshit.
Let this be a lesson to everybody. The community, the admins (both Reddit and Snapzu), and especially to myself. Don't expect things to just magically fall into place. Actually communicate. The only way for people to come to the right conclusions is with the right information. It is just ridiculous to expect the community to magically figure it out by themselves. That's not how rumors end. Rumors only get stronger if they are the only narrative.
Pao and her husband's shady past were enough for me to not want her as CEO. So I don't apologize for that. But yeah, I agree about the communication. So much speculation that people are throwing around as fact on Reddit all because the admins don't want to be upfront.
Ya, I'm not trying to say Ellen was without fault and I believe that she was placed on a glass cliff from the beginning. However, the things that have come out as probably not being her were the things that convinced me to sign the petition. If I knew what I know now, I'm not sure if I would've signed it. But it's too late now. To give us signers credit, when deciding whether we thought that she should step down or not, I don't think the vast majority of us considered "Hey, this could just be some admin clique drama that rivals that of middle schoolers"
Also, as I stated in my original post, this all depends on if Yishan was actually being honest. There are enough things in the comment that are worth being skeptical about that I am refraining from actually saying which one I believe is true. However, just the fact that the community has descended to this point is what made me finally go over the edge and just give up on reddit.
I just deleted my reddit account tonight. It felt quite liberating. Wherever the truth lies, It's under so many layers of lies I don't care to wade through. I'll stay on Snapzu and Voat, where the communities are actually awesome and the admins are great.
Yeah, I was never on either side of the Pao thing, I didn't really give a shit. It seemed really stupid, that whole thing. But just the way these people are acting makes me never want to go back there again. When the people running the site act as childish as the users I don't want to be a part of that. All I want is a site that posts interesting and informative things that people can discuss without resorting to being 10 year olds. I don't care about gossip.
Just shrug off the serious side of things and enjoy the drama for its entertainment value. That's how I've gotten through the past month.
I try. But the thing is, I've always loved the meta-site. It is what brought me in in the first place. The site really doesn't offer anything in the case of news that I can't get anywhere else. It was always the "being a redditor" that was fun. But it's really gone for me now, and I think looking over the entire community today has really cemented that for me. I just don't want to be a part of the community anymore. Either side of it. I'm not sure if I am going to delete my account/keep posting, but I think now is when I officially stop calling myself "a redditor". I think its time for me to take a long break from meta-drama.
After reading Yishan's post, I clicked log out. I doubt I'll set foot in there much after this.
Ever since finding Snapzu, I only used it to mostly keep track of a Dutch subreddit and to post my latest subtitles for Titansgrave on the CaptionTabletop subreddit (which has no visitors anyway), just to keep that all in one place. But I'm done with the site.
Yishan is easily one of my favorite redditors of all time now, just from watching his brutal honesty over the past month. He admits that he made bad decisions but then proceeds to mercilessly roast the current leadership and/or the community for their far greater mistakes. It's endlessly entertaining.
I don't see it as roasting the community for a greater mistake. He didn't say a word about what actually was going on until after Pao resigned. That just feels like manipulation. It wasn't stated that Pao had nothing to do with Victora. It wasn't stated why FPH or other subreddits were banned. The lack of communication lead to the witchhunt that he's now "roasting the community" for. Even other admins have called him out for sitting back silently as the shit hit the fan and letting someone else take the heat.
I don't like jumping on a bandwagon, but it really does feel like the Glass Cliff situation brought up. Even with the "ha ha, fuck you, you wanted rid of the one person fighting for you" unveil, Pao was still a temporary CEO. Even if the community hadn't witchhunted and cried for her resignation, she would have likely been replaced down the road with a more permanent option. So he's basically villainizing the community for...something they would have done anyway...
Sorry reddit "We tried to let you govern yourselves and you failed" to keep racist homophobic hateful subs under control, that we openly admit trying to keep in the dark. Reddit can't really control it'self if it's unaware of what it's left arm is doing. I hadn't heard of fatpeoplehate and all that until this debacle.
Let's ignore all the shadow banning of dissenter's, and focus on the fact he comes swanning in after the fact to point out with 20/20 hindsight how it's reddit's communitys fault. Both unfair and not entirely true (Reddit bears a lot of blame, make no mistake)
I think people need to step back and think about Yishan's intentions here. People like him for coming in to fan the flames and call out the admins, but it seems like people are jumping to conclusions yet again about what's really going on behind the scenes because of this. That's what started this whole damn mess in the first place.
That man has deserved his popcorn!
The replies to his post reminded me why I'm happy to have left for greener pastures (i.e. snapzu).
1 Harry-Potter meme, 1 "o_o", 1 "popcorn is delicious" (followed by "Delicious popcorn = fat agenda"), 1 "Fuck.", 1 sensible answer, 3 more memes, 1 sensible answer, another meme,...
Let's never allow snapzu to become like that, please :)
You forgot to add that someone had a "The Dalek Emperor" name too. I tend to just avoid everythind and stick to following the few subbredits I'm subscribed too.
You don think "fuck" isn't a sensible reaction? If I still kept on reddit, that'd be what I would be thinking.
It's a reaction I can understand. But it's not something that builds an intelligent discussion.
Don't get me wrong: I like to watch and laugh about Beavis and Butthead every once in a while. I just don't want to have every discussion destroyed by their ramblings.
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It's actually kind of unbelievable the childish manner they are dealing with their users. Close to the end of the main Ellen Pao's circle of drama it was becoming clear that she was being a scapegoat for the investor's ideas. The only thing that I wasn't expecting is that she was against them herself and instead the other "loved" admins were responsible for most of the ideas that drove that website crazy. Now Yishan comes and as an ex-CEO starts a post with AYYYY LMAO? They must think that their entire user base is comprised of idiots.
Eh I dunno about that last bit. I think I prefer "AYY LMAO" to corporate speak of "strategic initiatives" and "growth goals" while "maintaing core principles" or whatever they're on about these days. At least I can understand what the bloke is saying without having to read between the lines.
That said, he's not saying much, is he. So he's angry that users were mean to Pao, but happy because Reddit will press on with the changes that made her so despised. In fact, he's not even happy about that -- as he says, he himself chose the "free speech" approach, which I gather is over now, so it's his own policies being overturned. Rather, he's happy that those mean users won't like it. So, schadenfreude, no more.
Well then. Good on him, I suppose. I'd much rather see happy people, even if it's out of bitterness.
I will point out that Pao's unassailableness, as he puts it, cuts both ways. As in: Reddit users didn't give a toss that Pao is Asian and female, they still rioted, mutinous hooligans that they (we) are. I'm not sure how Wong expects that same community to deal with Steve Huffman, who doesn't even have those perks. Me? If he really carries on banning subs on nebulous rules, enforced with blatant partiality, and just making changes with utter disregard for the community, then I expect he'll be eaten alive, with Reddit imploding for good soon after.
Then again, there is a chance Huffman will be more reasonable. Remember, Wong is not part of Reddit, he's speaking for himself here, maybe even glad to see this cockup. Just because he says Reddit will do something doesn't mean it will. We should wait for that upcoming AMA, then we'll see.
... and I much rather I wouldn't, really, this drama is such a waste of time, I should be writing code instead! But man, it's such a trainwreck, I can't stop watching haha.
The partiality is why I want out. If the rules were consistent and enforced consistently, I would not care. I'm on board with the rules here, even if they're more restrictive than reddit or voat. They're fair, they're explicit, and they're not playing favorites. /r/SRS got huge passes on the no brigade rules, they're pretty toxic at least to anyone who disagrees with them. They're untouchable, while other subs with the same problems like /r/coontown. Take them both down or leave them both up. Don't care, but don't play favorites.
to be fair. the vocal minority that they are responding to, are pretty idiotic. The recent transgressions show just that.
So, the original reddit of congenial discourse that everyone is so nostalgic about was only that way because of spez's careful manipulation of speech? Hilarious.
Honestly, I didn't leave reddit because of the cries of censorship (except for /r/news constantly deleting posts about the TPP, that pissed me right off and is true censorship if you ask me). I left because the discourse was so very, terribly toxic. To the point where i would censor myself by not posting something I really, really wanted to, in order to prevent those neckbeards Yishan was talking about from downvoting me while piling on the insults and threats.
Being a woman on reddit is really, truly scary today. Especially after the gamergate fiasco.
I truly hope that this community itself doesn't and will never care about what gender a poster is.
Depends on which corner of reddit. I keep mine pretty safe and I don't even need to moderate it much for it because it's not very problematic if you never let it take root. But Snapzu had no dangerous corner so it's even better.
"I'm a bit confused, perhaps you can clarify what you mean:
Reddit caused Ellen's departure (you did it reddit!) but Ellen says it didn't and the board confirms.
Ellen was all about free speech and fatpeoplehate was only banned for inciting off-site but dozens of parody subreddits were banned after that did nothing off-site and hundreds of people were shadowbanned for criticizing her? Did she know this was happening?
With Ellen at the helm, Reddit was immune to being criticized for intentionally creating a racist / sexist environment but Reddit is the users, not the corporate structure. How could Reddit, Inc. be criticized for promoting free speech?
This entire time you had vital information that could have saved your friend embarrassment and mental anguish but you didn't say anything because of "Executive Privilege?"
I dunno man, this doesn't make sense to me. The only way this all works in my head is if Ellen was a figurehead with no actual power, had nothing to do with the contradictory decisions made, and you were under some sort of gag-order. Maybe this was all a giant cluster-fuck of epic proportions and the lack of communication was the result of internal squabbling, but honestly, I love Reddit and I expect better."
-Warlizard
Warlizard makes some valid points here.
https://archive.is/FeCfQ#selection-2045.0-2089.177
This was an inside job all along, to me it's stupid to start coming out with bullshit after the fact, seems like a knife in the back to me. Rile up the community, community going off the information given them, revolt, get what they think is right and now are basically getting laughed at , yeh I'm done with Reddit!
The thing about Reddit is, some of the members will do some serious witch hunting on a 25-30 second moment in someones life, and it just so happens they catch the wrong witch and than what happens. They go.... LETS FIND A NEW WITCH!
The worst thing any administration can do is insult their own userbase. I saw this same thing happen (albeit on a smaller scale) with Livejournal which used to be huge but is now nothing (except in Russia for some strange reason).
ETA: Yishan illustrates exactly why so many people no longer want to be a part of Reddit. It's got nothing to do with free speech. It has everything to do with respect. Or, in this case, the lack of it.
"racist-sexist neckbeards"?
I am done with Reddit.
I'll continue to watch Reddit, a sinking ship has a certain alure to it...
I am here now, and I hope snapzu continues to grow in a nice free and friendly manner :)
The absolute glee that he has there is the most insulting part of his comment. As if the community could've known all that. F4 Reddit!
This is most drama I've seen since high school. I'm glad I'm here.
Yeah I haven't been following that closely and am pretty confused by all the twists at this point... just like high school. Time to eat lunch in the corner by myself AKA Snapzu.
There is a real need for public spaces online, that are maintained for the public use. Unfortunately, it's usually the case that online communities exist in private space given a public makeover. Like a mall. You might meet your friends there, but that's not why the space is open for you to do so, and it's under no obligation to let you hang out in groups, or wander about without buying something eventually. I doubt Snapzu is any different. The problem will continue until these sorts of public spaces not only exist, but can compete with privately-run spaces like Reddit, Digg, Snapzu, etc in terms of usability and features.
Definitely. I think places like that can exist, but they're not rich. 8chan is the complete free for all. And it's definitely not for under 18. Even 4chan tends to fill that a bit. I go to both occasionally, and if you're willing to deal with that skeevy neighborhood, it's kinda fun in small doses. And if I want the inside scoop, that's where I go. I just don't think it's a good place to live.
Well, it's a bit like living in a park, isn't it? Not something I'm keen to do, but the park certainly has a place in my day. 8chan, etc are definitely free-for-alls, but I don't think they're exactly a true public space, either. All the government money seems to go towards building faster and faster "roads" online, but so little thought has gone into creating a destination of any sort.
More like downtown New Jersey. A big meeting place, lots going on, but it's not very nice. I think snapzu has more of a suburban vibe. Fairly quiet, very friendly, but lacks a bit of wildness. Otoh, 8chan is wild hip, and free.
“The End is Nigh!" the Redditor shouted. "Is there still time for hot chocolate?" Snapzu asked. The-End-is-Nigh Redditor blinked. "Ah, maybe, I don’t know.”
This drama that's going on Reddit at the moment is hilarious. It's so entertaining to watch Reddit praise themselves for 'winning' a battle which was inevitably their defeat.
I don't have a horse in this race (I'm here because I like it, not because I hate Reddit), but damn, am I enjoying the drama anyway. If what Yishan says is legit, this must some cinematic-level mindfuck for those that vilified Pao.
Here you go, lol!
https://www.change.org/p/reddit-bring-back-ellen-pao-as-the-ceo-of-reddit-inc
Reddit's executives are like Hydra, cut off one head and two more will take its place. It won't be long before they have a secret police style moderators that just go ahead and delete subreddits and shadowban people without giving any reasons. Now the banhammer comes down hard.
I've said since the start of the debacle that I much better liked the spez era (my reddit account is 9 years old, I was was there when he left 5 years ago). I wonder how much that attitude of his contributed to it.
I know that my own sub would go to hell with no moderation. It doesn't seem far stretched that it would apply to reddit as a whole.
Don't hang me for this, but someone had to say it.
"We did it, Reddit! We won!! Le Reddit army XD"
YES! :D That's the best speech I have read on reddit in forever. This made me genuinely happy. Like the end of a really good movie. I hope Ellen achieves great success in her life. :D
I'm pretty sick of hearing about Ellen Pao, Steve Huffman, Yishan Wong, and the whole reddit debacle. I came here to find better content and comments, and to get away from all the drama. I guess what I'm wondering is when can we stop talking about it? I mean, can we just all collectively agree to move on?
I think there's something that Yishan and the rest of the admins are forgetting about their "original vision of Reddit"... there wasn't anyone there; it wasn't until the Digg exodus that Reddit took off. So they can go ahead and start banning whomever they like, and start cracking down on content they find objectionable- they'll end up the Admins of the best moderated ghost town on the Internet.
Say hi to MySpace for me.
This yishan guy was a former CEO?
Everything I know about business is wrong...
Yes but I would wager he's practically unhireable now as a CEO considering the things he's said about his former employer and coworkers.
It's all descended into he said she said....just get over yourselves. They all suffered narcissistic injury to their fragile egos.
Just deleted my account. I'm done with the bullshit.