Seems to be a large increase in no reason down votes of legitimate posts
e.g. US vs Japan World Cup Final, a post on the ability of humans to see polarized light.
Can anything be done to further educate the new influx of members re this?
8 years ago by Cobbydaler
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37 comments
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I made a comment earlier about how the German and English language (sharing of words) had the same foundation and started getting downvoted. I really hope the negative culture from other places doesn't make it's way over here.
Hey, I saw your comment! I thought it genuinely added to discussion, so the only reasons I could imagine someone would downvote you is if they wanted their comment to go higher, or if they disagreed with you. Neither of those are legitimate reasons to downvote. That sort of thing makes me wonder if downvotes should be anonymous.
I think that would be great, but would also like to see a mandatory reason code like I saw mentioned elsewhere. I think the combo would help more than either individual piece.
Mandatory reason code is probably one of the better ideas. It'll be hard for trolls to bs a downvote reason on the spot, and even if they can it will probably look bs'd. It might not solve the problem, but at least we will know when we are being downvoted by someone for now reason.
I also like the idea of there being some sort of expandable downvote history or something. That would be pretty good as well.
Actually, the more I think about this, the more I like it. At times, I can see something like this be a bit more "punishing" to those who downvote. However, on the flip side, showing people who downvoted, is a good way to deter spamming as well.
It almost reminds me of what stackexchange sites do when users mark a question as duplicate. You know who marked it and for what reason. I like that.
I think that showing who down voted what could also have the potential to start bullying and flame wars. I like that it's kept anonymous, but I think providing a reason on comments as well as snaps could help deter spamming at least. There will always be jerks on the internet, there really isn't a way to stop them every where or every single time.
Downvotes aren't meant to be a "disagree" button, so I can't imagine flame wars would erupt unless they're misused.
And "stopping jerks" is not necessarily about managing mean behavior. When you have a vote-based content system reddit, snapzu, or voat, downvoting means that dissent often gets sidelined, even if it is honest and well-reasoned dissent. Back-and-forth often gets misinterpreted as argument, too, and suffers that same treatment. You can't have a conversation in that environment. It leads to the phenomenon of threads dominated by meta-discussions about how the hivemind or circlejerk is ruining the website -- often instead of discussing the topic at hand.
On the plus side if someone does go into a flame war of downvotes it will be completely clear who is doing it and the appropriate action can be taken such as banning the user or disabling the ability to downvote.
I would worry about personal vendettas flaming up. Beyond knowing that someone downvoted you, I'm not sure what the additional information of who downvoted you does for you? Do you message them and ask why if they forgot to leave a reason? Beyond that, I can't think of any other things anyone would actually do with that. Well....any good things that people would do with that! :P
Yeah, it is a difficult system to control well. I think you're probably right, I hadn't really thought about that. There's trade offs to either one. I guess we should just stick with the spirit of what we have, and follow guidelines on it.
That's actually a pretty wonderful idea. Attach a name to a downvote. People tend to think more when they can't hide behind anonymity.
Unless they have a valid reason to downvote, in which they will receive a nasty message for downvoting comments that genuinely deserved it. capping daily downvotes depending on site tenure and internal auditing of downvote totals by user would curb the behaviour incredibly quickly.
At which point they would be in violation of the site's policy against harassment or abusive language and would get banned. I would have no issue with the account publicly tied to the down vote and the reason for the down vote.
That's cool, but it means an unpaid admin team devoting and additional 188 hours (slightly exaggerated) per person per day to follow up on new requests of mean private messages being sent. Then you also get people signing up fake accounts sending harassment messages from those, then you ban that account and the account that invited them but then it turns out that a stranger gave them the account, and now a stranger is penalised for good will. You want to put in the most effective policies that require the least work to implement and police.
Okay fair enough. I realized I was kind of oversimplifying it as I was posting it. Do you feel that a mandatory reason of the down vote, with the reason remaining anonymous would fit the criteria of effective and least work to implement that satisfied the base concern?
I don't, only because mandatory submissions tend to result in junk data being received that could otherwise be useful.
The only other suggestion based around tenure I could give would be to give people unlimited downvotes, but scale their downvote percentage. e.g. you are allowed 2 downvotes a day because you have been here 5 minutes, but you have downvoted 100 posts, so each post is downvoted .02. This might/would require a significant change in the backend, as well as changing data types to data types that retain more data. It wouldn't change the behaviour of people downvoting but it would change the outcome. I don't know if you can change the mentality of peoples perception on what a downvote should be used for. Considering the imminent mass migration that is coming/taking place (myself included), trying to change the behaviour might be like trying to stop a ship sinking by removing water with a single bucket.
Edit: Reddit still has the same rules, downvote based on whether or not something adds to the discussion... Most people completely ignore it there, I can't see why they would respect the rule here.
What about when you go to down vote you have to click a box of like 6 choices like, dangerous information, or spam or something like that.
Me too. If it takes hold it will really degrade the inclusive nature of the site.
Unfortunately I can see this as being an ongoing issue. It's going to take time for people to adjust to a new site and fit into it's established culture. Especially for those that have been on a particular site for years and don't have experience in other communities.
I'd strongly encourage new users to slow down, take in the site and gain an understanding of what the core membership is like. It will improve your participation and experience immensely.
I feel like a majority of the migrating users have been kind, and fit right into the culture. I'm hoping that other migratory Redditors learn to fit in, and make the changes that allow this community to thrive.
Yeah, on reddit downvoting is a very common thing minus a few select subs that are either very tight knit or have a unique culture. That's one of the things I like about here, it reminds me of my old favorite subs.
There's a post on ideas for Snapzu that could address some of it.
Beyond that, I honestly don't know, but it is very discouraging to see. The stickies are small and many users overlook them and the outlines of the etiquette and culture that existed before the influx aren't seeing the attention they deserve. For now our only option may be to discuss etiquette of the down vote when we see it being abused in a specific thread.
With that in mind - Moderators and Chiefs, please remember to explain to your new tribe members the nature of down votes if you see it being used inappropriately in your tribe!
Yeah, my USA Winning the World Cup post was downvoted. No reason was given. It was why I went and created the post at /t/ideasforsnapzu that cmagnificent linked.
See my reply to that. You are asked to give a reason when downvoting.
Hopefully once things settle down, people find their groove, and the internet rights itself again it will stop. I've found alternative methods of making sure I don't see content I don't want to see, but that wasn't necessarily offensive, just NSFW stuff that, with having two small children, I don't wish to pop up on my screen.
Is there a way for moderator's of a tribe to see who is downvoting a post? Perhaps then a polite message regarding the sites rules/etiquette regarding downvoting could be sent to them without public finger pointing?
I think the mandatory downvote reason feature would help a lot. Downvotes serve a purpose. Downvotes without a legitimate reason do not.
I still like this idea, my only concern is the reason field being entered with "." and then submitted.
I have noticed more down voting, and also general hostility (especially to things mentioning women, oddly). It is a bummer. :(
Yea I got one here , no reason given.
Man, I'm not liking this sudden (to me) change. I feel like the downvote button is the second to last resort for inappropriate behavior and the last resort being reporting to a mod.
Maybe there should be an increase in wait time and have a "new user" cap until the new people can be acclimated to the existing atmosphere of this place and then there won't such a hostile takeover of unwelcome reddit mentality?
My thinking is that if Reddit keeps on like it is now, we might be overrun with a group of new behaviors that the active users of the site can't manage.
IDK, I didn't think things would snowball so quickly.
The old Reddit down vote to oblivion...
Could taking out the downvote feature be a soultuon?
The down vote exists so the community can deal with trolls/spammers and other extremely negative content they don't want to see on the site (hate speech, harassment, abuse, bullying etc), so the down vote serves a definitive purpose.
The problem is there's been a massive cultural influx of people who are used to the down vote as an "I disagree, think this is stupid or don't want to see it" button. It's really only to be used for something that directly violates a particular tribe's rules or the site's policies.
There's talk of altering the functionality of the down vote button, but for now the impetus is on the community at large to address down vote abuse. If you're the chief of or moderate some tribes it would be great to do a sticky about it or include something about the differences in down vote culture on the side bar.
That would just turn this site's front page into pictures of Bill Gates promising $10,000 to each person who upvotes....a downvote has its purpose.
I must apologize. I am an ex-Redditor and I made this mistake not 2 days ago. I saw a video posted of a cartoon with a lady who was stealing other people's dogs. I thought it was senseless and lacked any real meaning. I downvoted it. I didn't take the time to read through the rules of the site and I messed up. Luckily, this was the only casualty in my Snapzu-ing and I later changed my vote on that post after seeing a similar thread to this in /t/lounge about down votes.
The point is, these posts act as reminders to us new folk and probably need to keep being posted and upvoted for the next couple of months. I know they helped me figure out this community and am confident that they will help others. So thank you for bringing it up and reminding us newbies. :)
Because you can no longer even give a reason for your down vote even if you wanted too. See, I just gave you a down vote because it's apparent you don't know about recent voting changes and this post is obsolete, but I can't inform you of this when I down voted because it no longer gives you the option to do that so I'm posting a comment publicly here.
Personally I have no problems with this. People like and dislike things and what's most liked get's to the top of the page. It's how the Internet of things work. Having a down vote with reasons is way too much of a hug box for me. However, I'd like a report function for thing that legitimately have been posted incorrectly. That is also lacking right now.
You really can't change human nature. If the downvote feature isn't functioning in a manner that the community deems appropriate, then the feature needs to change. Educating people doesn't really help. Reddit always tried to educate people that the downvote button wasn't a disagree button, but it gets used that way regardless. You'd need a means of somehow auditing downvotes, or limiting their use, or identify who downvoted, or a means of contesting a downvote. You essentially have to discourage the behavior so it's only used when it is necessary.