Pope attacks capitalism as 'dung of the devil' in speech

Pope Francis has launched a blistering attack on the "new colonialism" of austerity, describing unfettered capitalism as "the dung of the devil" and apologising for the Catholic church's role in the conquest of indigenous populations in the Americas.

http://www.independent.ie

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9 years ago
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- danielxvu (edited 9 years ago)
  +5
  
  Heh, I find myself almost calling myself a socialist now and then. But, as someone whose parents fled a communist takeover, anything to do with socialism/communism I find myself having a illogical, knee-jerk reaction towards and so I don't call myself anything. I guess that emotionally I've been bred to react conservatively, but intellectually I've developed quite liberal views?
  
  It seems that planting myself within the middle seems to be the best option for most socioeconomic stuff anyways. For example, I don't favour taking things away from people that were earned justly, but I have no problem with ill-gotten gains being reclaimed.
  
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    9 years ago
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    - double2
      +6
      
      PREACH BROTHER! Socialism CAN work whereas capitalism has failure built in to it. Capitalism has its function when you need rapid growth, but the world does not need this any more.
      
      9 years ago
      
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      - Pantera (edited 9 years ago)
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        All forms of government have failure as long as people are involved. All over the world and in all societies there has been high middle and low class. Even when the world was set up in tribes. Socialism looks great on paper but it still has people involved and very much room for corruption. Some people will work harder for less. Some people will get less. Some people will get more. Capitalism is the same in that it has people involved so there is corruption. I see capitalism edging out socialism because at least a common man can carve out an existence that he can be happy with. With socialism you're kind of stuck where you are.
        
        Is government even necessary? Yes and no. No because people existed without formal governments. Yes because the governments are here and if you don't have one other governments will simply move in and take your stuff. Ask the American populations, North and South. So to prevent England from stopping by and claiming our lands we have to set up something. While we're at it will take this stuff over here. I recently read 1984 and I recommend anyone read it. George Orwell was a socialist. The newspeak, thoughtcrime and doublethink is just as real in every type of government as the ones he was speaking out in. Even his own. You can see it happening with the conservatives and the liberals. Fox news gets downed as biased but can you imagine if Hilarity Clinton was republican? You'd hear nothing but Benghazi until she dropped from the running.
        
        And this is the real war being fought. Something between the liberals and conservatives the dems and repubs. Us vs them. Ever wonder why? It's a huge circle jerk to keep people who are in power in power. How do you end that? Revolution! But the revolution will just set up someone else to be in power and the actual common people will NEVER be free. Ever. How many people did Che kill to set up a dictatorship? How many people did Stalin kill? A lot of people die in these revolutions just to set someone else on the throne.
        
        So yes, socialism can work but it depends on the leaders being honest. Good luck with that.
        
        9 years ago
        
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        9 years ago
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        Pantera
        +4
        
        @ -
        Even stalinism can work as long as the leaders are good and fair. I'm just not confident in that we'll ever have leaders that aren't at least a little corrupt.
        
        The main gripe I have with socialism is that it makes common people dependent on the state for almost everything. Eventually there is revolt and then little mr I want to run it all steps in and you are in a very oppressed state.
        
        9 years ago
        
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        Pantera
        +2
        
        @ -
        The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do. --Stalin
        
        I am almost dead center in those political grid things. A little high and to the left. I want to believe in this type of government or that kind but I simply have no faith that any type is beyond corruption and therefore will not have my interests in mind. It's just how human nature works.
        
        At any rate, if you live in the USA, it seems to be heading to socialism anyway. I hope it doesn't but you'll be thrilled heh. Will I survive? I think so but it depends on which freedoms they choose to take from me. Man has existed through all kinds of stuff so I'm sure I'll find a place.
        
        9 years ago
        
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        Pantera
        +2
        
        @ -
        It seems to be going for more welfare and more government in more things.
        
        9 years ago
        
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    - KaliYugaz
      +4
      
      About Juche... it's more or less a sham ideology. North Korea's true ideology is a kind of race-based ultranationalism, similar in form to Imperial Japanese fascism.
      
      There's a book called The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why it Matters which discusses this in greater detail.
      
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        KaliYugaz (edited 9 years ago)
        +4
        
        Yep, Juche was made up to appease the Soviets, who wouldn't have been very keen to publicly support a quasi-fascist state. It still features heavily in external propaganda, but NK internal propaganda is pretty much all racist Korean ethnonationalism and Kim family personality cult.
        
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  - [Deleted Profile] (edited 9 years ago)
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    9 years ago
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    - danielxvu (edited 9 years ago)
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      I didn't think that what I said contradicted that! I am very much of that opinion too. Whether the redistribution should be done by force is actually what I'm concerned about. I guess I love the idea but hate the suggested implementation(s). The freedom to buy into an idea and not be punished for not doing so should be preserved above much else generally.
      
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    9 years ago
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    - danielxvu
      +3
      
      Ha, Vietnam actually.
      
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  - spammusbi (edited 9 years ago)
    +1
    
    I adhere to very socialist and communist ideas. I am a Marxist-Leninist. The problem with all the countries that were so called "Communist", were not real communist countries...ever. They might have started on a path towards revolution and even had one, but the end result out of those revolutions were either State Communism or Military Communism, if you wanna call it that.
    
    Capitalism cannot last forever. If you read Karl Marx, he says that capitalism has a tipping point. When there is too much surplus, which we have TONS of surplus. People keep buying and buying, selling, making, and so on and so forth. They make MORE then we need. TONS of food, clothes, electronics etc., get thrown away every day.
    
    We can already see the tipping point today. Capitalism will eventually explode and everything we know of will be very out of wack. Socialism is the way to make this work. When people start to take control of their own workplace and we only produce what is needed. Workers do not control the means of production AT ALL now days. I could go on and on.
    
    The end result though is communism. No money, no petite or large bourgeoisie, more free time to pursue the things you want and so on and so forth. Of course that is very very very far if it even happens at all. But we can at least hope for a more Socialist world. Capitalism has run it's course.
    
    Come join us on /t/marxismleninism if you want to know more
    
    9 years ago
    
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    - kvn
      +3
      
      You are seriously just rambling on without providing any actual evidence. Please entertain me, and tell me how we already see the "tipping point of Capitalism today." What does "eventually explode and everything we know of will be very out of wack" even mean? What are you saying?
      
      9 years ago
      
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      - spammusbi
        +3
        
        Dependence on growth. Capitalism depends on things to continue growing. This is not possible. Capitalism uses tons of resources and what does anyone get out of it? Waste.
        
        Here is a good article to read up on. I'm sorry I was rambling on before.
        
        http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/08/six-arguments-for-the-elimination-of-capitalism/
        
        9 years ago
        
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- junioreconomist (edited 9 years ago)
  +3
  
  I would, if I may, ask a question of you that I should probably research on my own, but as you have a firm understanding, and I prefer to learn from interaction, I think this is the best course.
  
  A definition for economics that we most often use comes from Lionel Robbins--"Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses." Keeping this in mind, and that "scarce" means that what everybody wants adds up to more than there is (as Thomas Sowell put it), how does Socialism solve the problem of scarcity?
  
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    9 years ago
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    - junioreconomist
      +3
      
      Hey, thanks for being honest. Looks like I've got some research to do.
      
      To help you out a little, think of economics as the answer to the question "how much of each resource should be allocated to each of its many uses?" Doing so in the most efficient manner is what economics is all about. Different types of economic systems are basically different ways of making decisions about the allocation of scarce resources, and each of these decisions has an impact on the whole society. Again, I'm paraphrasing Thomas Sowell since he's much smarter than I am.
      
      9 years ago
      
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zaywolfe
+4

Quoting a fourth century bishop, he called the unfettered pursuit of money "the dung of the devil", and said poor countries should not be reduced to being providers of raw material and cheap labour for developed countries.

It doesn't seem like he even mentioned capitalism.

9 years ago

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- thedon
  +4
  
  Well that last part certainly is the backbone of our almost-worldwide capitalist system, he didn't call out capitalism itself but the consequences it's had.
  
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  - junioreconomist
    +4
    
    I think he's being a bit too reductive here, as well. Although, in a perfect society, there would be no poor countries, right now this is the only form of decent employment they can get. There are a few good analyses on both child labor and sweat shops in lesser developed countries. It sounds bad from our POV, but it's better than the alternative--which is starvation--for them. Let me know if you'd like me to link some sources. It's a pretty cool, yet sad, discussion.
    
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      9 years ago
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      - junioreconomist
        +5
        
        Oh, of course things should be better, and I think we're getting there slowly. Even Marx said that we can't skip the cycle or we'll be swept to the banks.
        
        Right now, government is too inefficient, in my opinion, to be trusted with the livelihoods of citizens dependent on the economy. To me, the solution for citizens who can't be trusted to make sound, economic choices is not to have a committee of citizens make those choices for everyone else. For example, look at the superfluous spending on defense (in the US at least). Couldn't that money be better used for infrastructure, healthcare, or even better, to be placed back into the pockets of our people?
        
        Sure, there are ways to better spend our dollars, but because of politics, agency costs, and interest groups, government spending will eventually return to an archaic spending method that does not best meet the needs of the people.
        
        9 years ago
        
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      - zaywolfe (edited 9 years ago)
        +4
        
        Not only do I think things should be better but I think the world is rich enough now that it could be better. The problem is that the wealth of the world, not just the US, is owned by a minority. And it'll take a new way of thinking for people to realize there's actually enough to go around without the rich losing everything.
        
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        9 years ago
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        zaywolfe
        +1
        
        @ -
        I agree, but I think there could be alternative ways it could go down. Bernie Sanders for one is changing the way we think of things forever. In some way even if Bernie doesn't get elected I feel like he's already won. He's successfully created a political revolution in the way people think about policy that will now outlive him.
        
        9 years ago
        
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alizure
+1

I think the government needs a complete overhaul. Meaning, scrap this one and create a new one. One that would serve the nation better. To much money, to much power over peoples lives.

9 years ago

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Potzblitz
+1

Yeah... What does his whole shebang cost in one year? Say again?

9 years ago

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