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Conversation 13 comments by 7 users
  • double2 (edited 5 years ago)
    +10

    Why feminism isn't re-branded "Gender Equality". I am a man who considers himself a feminist. I completely accept that women are the gender marginalised in almost all cases, but it just seems like awful marketing for the cause as it makes men feel excluded from the movement. Many feminists will tell you that positive discrimination is just as damaging as bog-standard discrimination as it perpetuates a divide of equality - but surely that just shows why the name is flawed? I have talked about this so, so, so very many times with many feminists close to me and never been able to make the leap to endorsing the use of the term.

    Edit: just to clarify, I'm not looking to argue against it, I'm just frustrated I can't come to my own resonance with the wider view on the point. I wouldn't dare as a guy to take the view that it SHOULD be changed - I just still don't understand, as per the question I'm replying to! Eek. Please don't hate me anyone...

    • DiamondDragon
      +7

      Exactly. I believe that until the 'feminism' title is dropped they will be unable to achieve equality of the sexes simply because that is not their stated intent. The issues of gender equality are too complicated to only approach from half the participants on either side. Placing blame never solves problems in any case, it will be solved when individuals everywhere start asking what can I do.

    • Qukatt
      +5

      Its equality activism with a focus on how it affects women. In much the same way that #blacklivesmatter is eqaulity activism with a focus on the black community.

      None of it is intended to say "men don't matter" or "white lives don't matter" its just those subjects are the sections that currently need work.

      Like all the recent victories for the lbgb community doesn't mean its done, it means its now time to focus more on the trans community to lift them up alongside the progress being made in other areas.

      Of course there are utter fucking twods on all sides in all causes who ruin shit for everyone and act like its some zero sum game of caring.

      We should all care about total equality but that doesn't mean we cant identify particular problem areas and strongly target those with tailored actions. Horses for courses.

      • spaceghoti
        +5

        To provide some context to this, how many people know the name Aiyana Stanley-Jones? How many people know the name JonBenet Ramsey? Guess what they have in common, and what sets them apart?

        • Qukatt
          +1

          I wasn't familiar with that second name, it made for some grim morning reading.

      • double2
        +1

        OK. I can totally accept this if this is the definition of feminism. Thank you for the response!

    • BlankWindow
      +4

      Dated a woman who was baffled that I refused to consider myself a feminist while I agreed with most everything she would propose to me. Feminism specifies equality for females while I see many of the issues extending into sexuality, wealth, race, and other categories that aren't dependent on the persons sex. Feminism is a subset of equality.

    • Charlemagne
      +3

      See, I started feeling really uncomfortable calling myself a feminist when I started talking to people that call themselves one. I prefer to just say egalitarian or "for gender equality" since feminism is definitely centered on women. Which is fine, but there needs to stop being such a stigma against men's rights groups. Especially from so called "feminists" that are only looking out for themselves.

      • Qukatt
        +3

        the problem with MRAs is the same problem that people have with feminist elements.

        that is to say any sane person would and should agree there are many areas where men have a really shitty deal, mostly in the areas of child care, emotional response and stuff.

        Fathers should absolutely get paid paternity allowance on par with maternity cover. Why feminists support this? It makes parental leave equal, it brings the excuse of women having a hard time getting employment due to the cost of their time off to have babies out of the equation if men have that same cost risk to businesses. It encourages men into early bonding with their babies and helps reduce post partum symptoms in women and will certainly help catch symptoms of Post partum psychosis which can be fatal to the baby and allow the mothers to get medical help.

        Men should absolutely be encouraged to have feelings, we have shitty amounts of male suicide based around inadequacy in the "provider" department. Feminists absolutely should support this, it's in our interest to encourage stay at home dads and house husbands and make that really not a big deal. If women earned the same as men for the same work that frees up men to follow passions and home businesses like we've had the luxury of for the last while. without the pressure of earning and normalcy of having the same freedom of choice between home and career as we've fought for so hard I think we'd see a huge reduction of unhappy 9-5 wage slave men who would be much better off being able to speak up and take time to figure life out cause their wife is cool to do the bills for a few years.

        it's totally in the interest of MRAs to support equal pay for women, to support women in the armed forces, to support pro-choice and birthcontrol agendas (and for feminists to support male birth control and support men's choice to procreate or not) even though those are seen as a women's issue and men's custody inequality seen as a man's issue there's honestly the best interest in both groups supporting each other as much as possible.

        Don't get me wrong, MRA and feminists should be separate groups because each group can work on it's own campaigns and it's far more effective not to generalise. It's a good way of preventing activism burnout as well if you're working on just one or two projects at once and focusing on one area.

        But you're right, it's hard to call yourself a feminist these days with all the crazy 3rd wave bullshit, it's hard to say you support MRA without sounding like a crazy women hating pick up artist. But you should. Stand up, say you believe in both these things, recognise that you have it good in some areas and horrible in others no matter who you are (that's what people are on about when they talk about privilege) Don't just wait until it's you that has the problem.

        The more rational people supporting anything the easier it is to say "hey those extreme haters are not the normal" and we can stop writing off the need to do something as not needed because only the loud twods are shouting about it.