Do you need to read my post again? Here's a relevant quote:
Equating selection with modification certainly keeps popping up in these pro-GMO articles, even though it's obviously dishonest. With one way, there is no modification, with the other, there is. Is "yes" equal to "no"?
The point was that there's a difference between modifying something and choosing something, and therefore it's dishonest to equate the two (like pro-GMO articles keep doing).
Yes, of course the techniques are different, but the result is the same (as I said before). If I write a book with a word processor, is it dishonest to claim that I could've written the same book with a typewriter?
Are you thinking in terms of modifying an individual organism? I ask because the GMO issue concerns to modifications made to a species, breed, or strain, which can be accomplished by either selective breeding or genetic engineering. That's what hallucinogenia seems to have in mind.
The choosing pertains to individual organisms or genes. The modifications are the results of those choices and pertain to an entire strain or breed of organism that will carry the desired trait through future generations. Dogs are a good example: humans selected individual wolves and bred them, and the result was a variety of modified wolves such as huskies, golden retrievers, and Australian shepherds.
You're muddying up the definition of "modification". Even if you insist on using it in the sense of "modification by selection", there's still a difference between that and "modification by direct change".
Compare:
- "I modified my new BMW by choosing to have leather seats installed".
- "I modified my new BMW by installing leather seats".
That difference only exists in the first generation of the new type of organism. The subsequent generations, which are the ones raised for food, raw materials, or other purposes, will all start life with the modifications regardless of the methods used. If your new BMW could have children, they'd have leather seats right from the start either way.
But the results are the same, which was the whole point of this discussion. The individual modified plants that actually become food are neither selected nor directly altered in a lab. They are grown from seeds that were harvested from other modified plants.
GMOs are only bad if they cause harm, and that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Genetic engineering is just a set of techniques that can be used to create new organisms, both good and bad. Are metalworking techniques bad because they can produce swords and guns, or good because they can produce medical tools? Are metal tools bad because a few of them (e.g. swords) are weapons?
I'd rather make it closer to neutral. The greatest harm I've heard of resulting from GMOs has been economic, due to suspended trade with Japan after some stray GMO wheat was found in a field in Oregon. But that problem was caused by Japan's belief that GMOs are bad, not by any known health risks. My personal opinion on GMOs is "proceed with caution."
The greatest harm I've heard of resulting from GMOs has been economic, due to suspended trade with Japan after some stray GMO wheat was found in a field in Oregon. But that problem was caused by Japan's belief that GMOs are bad, not by any known health risks
Wow.. :D Very sophistry. Such disgust. So it's bad to think that GMOs are bad because that results in economic harm? That makes no sense. Obviously Japan was prepared to do without GMO crops - otherwise they wouldn't have banned them.
Look, you're a pro-GMO shill. That's been reasonably clear for a while now. Maybe you've been instructed to always get in the last word, and to make it pro-GMO. I'm not sure what to do here. I can't make you stop posting, but I don't want to keep playing these games either.
So it's bad to think that GMOs are bad because that results in economic harm?
No. The point of the example was that GMOs are sometimes bad, even if they aren't inherently bad. It would be stupid for farmers who sell crops to Japan to plant GM crops.
Look, you're a pro-GMO shill.
No. I'm just a person whose opinion on the matter differs from yours. No one has offered or given me any incentive whatsoever to hold or express a specific opinion on GMOs.
This whole thing started as an attempt to explain how selective breeding is a form of genetic modification in the sense that it can create a new subspecies or other type of new variant. The point of all that is that genetic modification is not inherently bad. If you eat anything that was grown or raised on a farm (with only a handful of possible exceptions such as farmed salmon), you're eating something that has been modified from the original wild organism. The interesting differences that set genetic engineering apart from other methods are the range and extent of possible modifications and human issues such as intellectual property laws. Neither is a necessary part of genetic engineering--it can be used to accomplish modifications identical to those made through selective breeding, and scientists or corporations can choose not to try to make a new GMO crop proprietary--but they are a reality we have to acknowledge. GMOs can be extremely bad, but they don't have to be.
I hope I've explained my position well enough here to convince you that I'm not fully for or against GMOs. You can have the last word now if you'd like.
Do you need to read my post again? Here's a relevant quote:
The point was that there's a difference between modifying something and choosing something, and therefore it's dishonest to equate the two (like pro-GMO articles keep doing).
Is that clear now? :p
Yes, of course the techniques are different, but the result is the same (as I said before). If I write a book with a word processor, is it dishonest to claim that I could've written the same book with a typewriter?
Well, I'll just settle for making my own claim against yours: The results are not the same. There. I guess that's settled then.
Are you thinking in terms of modifying an individual organism? I ask because the GMO issue concerns to modifications made to a species, breed, or strain, which can be accomplished by either selective breeding or genetic engineering. That's what hallucinogenia seems to have in mind.
Again, choosing something is not the same as modifying something.
The choosing pertains to individual organisms or genes. The modifications are the results of those choices and pertain to an entire strain or breed of organism that will carry the desired trait through future generations. Dogs are a good example: humans selected individual wolves and bred them, and the result was a variety of modified wolves such as huskies, golden retrievers, and Australian shepherds.
You're muddying up the definition of "modification". Even if you insist on using it in the sense of "modification by selection", there's still a difference between that and "modification by direct change".
Compare:
That difference only exists in the first generation of the new type of organism. The subsequent generations, which are the ones raised for food, raw materials, or other purposes, will all start life with the modifications regardless of the methods used. If your new BMW could have children, they'd have leather seats right from the start either way.
Alright, so you finally conceded there's a difference. Good.
But the results are the same, which was the whole point of this discussion. The individual modified plants that actually become food are neither selected nor directly altered in a lab. They are grown from seeds that were harvested from other modified plants.
No, the whole point was that GMOs are bad :)
Can we please just stop already?
GMOs are only bad if they cause harm, and that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Genetic engineering is just a set of techniques that can be used to create new organisms, both good and bad. Are metalworking techniques bad because they can produce swords and guns, or good because they can produce medical tools? Are metal tools bad because a few of them (e.g. swords) are weapons?
You really insist on making the last word here pro-GMO?
I'd rather make it closer to neutral. The greatest harm I've heard of resulting from GMOs has been economic, due to suspended trade with Japan after some stray GMO wheat was found in a field in Oregon. But that problem was caused by Japan's belief that GMOs are bad, not by any known health risks. My personal opinion on GMOs is "proceed with caution."
Wow.. :D Very sophistry. Such disgust. So it's bad to think that GMOs are bad because that results in economic harm? That makes no sense. Obviously Japan was prepared to do without GMO crops - otherwise they wouldn't have banned them.
Look, you're a pro-GMO shill. That's been reasonably clear for a while now. Maybe you've been instructed to always get in the last word, and to make it pro-GMO. I'm not sure what to do here. I can't make you stop posting, but I don't want to keep playing these games either.
No. The point of the example was that GMOs are sometimes bad, even if they aren't inherently bad. It would be stupid for farmers who sell crops to Japan to plant GM crops.
No. I'm just a person whose opinion on the matter differs from yours. No one has offered or given me any incentive whatsoever to hold or express a specific opinion on GMOs.
This whole thing started as an attempt to explain how selective breeding is a form of genetic modification in the sense that it can create a new subspecies or other type of new variant. The point of all that is that genetic modification is not inherently bad. If you eat anything that was grown or raised on a farm (with only a handful of possible exceptions such as farmed salmon), you're eating something that has been modified from the original wild organism. The interesting differences that set genetic engineering apart from other methods are the range and extent of possible modifications and human issues such as intellectual property laws. Neither is a necessary part of genetic engineering--it can be used to accomplish modifications identical to those made through selective breeding, and scientists or corporations can choose not to try to make a new GMO crop proprietary--but they are a reality we have to acknowledge. GMOs can be extremely bad, but they don't have to be.
I hope I've explained my position well enough here to convince you that I'm not fully for or against GMOs. You can have the last word now if you'd like.