Snapzu users who didn't migrate here from reddit - do you have concerns about the influx?
Given that Snapzu, so far, seems like a relatively small site, I'd imagine that the community is closer knit and not perpetually making comparisons to other sites when it comes to the UI, rules, etc. I wanted to find out if original users here have any worries about the sudden growth of Snapzu. For example:
- What if new users try to turn Snapzu into reddit 2.0?
- Is there a community "feel" or attitude that might disappear with a significant influx of new users?
Those were just ones I thought of trying to see it from the perspective of users who have been here for a while, so if I'm completely off base, that's fine. If you don't have any concerns at all, that's fine too! I just wanted to get a feel for the community already established here.
8 years ago by LacquerCritic
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I looked into Reddit as an option before coming to Snapzu. I had some sections of Reddit, the front page and select subs, as part of my news feeds for years, and I finally decided to give it a try and got an account. That lasted about 2 months, and then I came to Snapzu. I have been involved in online communities before, but I'm a bit of a rare bird in that I don't have much of an online presence. No Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, etc. I like reading online. I like smallish, or at least more civil, communities. I only operate anonymously.
As for concerns, I don't want Snapzu to become like Reddit. Reddit has some great parts to it, don't get me wrong, but in the end I was 100% unwilling to put up with the heinous shit going on in its supposedly dark corners. People who say, "I didn't even know about r/fatpeoplehate," must not have been paying attention at all, because it was listed as one of the most popular subs on search. I could go on all day about the bullshit over there, about harassment on r/crochet etc. In my experience the shitty behavior was in no way relegated to the very overt hate subs, but permeated the entire site. Fuck. That.
The Snapzu team has given assurances that this is not a free platform for bigoted shit. I'll never really know what the founders of Reddit were thinking when they set up that site, but normalizing neo-nazi sentiment etc does not make sense to me whatsoever. It's morally reprehensible, IMHO. I feel like this about Reddit. I'm hoping that Snapzu won't make the same mistakes.
I totally agree with you that FPH was not at all hidden... I liked to recent posts on /all to get exposed to new subs, and FPH was all over that. I also agree that the hateful attitude was all over reddit, not just confined to some subs. It's definitely grown in the five years I've been on that site.
What made me join reddit five years ago was the way I was seeing complete strangers open up and respect each other. "Freedom of speech," to me, means giving everyone the space to say what they think even when you disagree. I don't care about the freedom to hate or bully others.
There are good parts of Reddit, no doubt. I did agonize over my decision to leave becasue I enjoyed much of it. People seemed quite unfazed by the negative aspects, but the fact that people were unfazed was a factor in my decision as well. I don't approve of turning a blind eye to horrible behavior. I do not expect the whole world, or the whole Internet, to be some paradise, but I do believe that online, as in the world, I have a moral imperative to not support that which I find abhorant and harmful. I saw using Reddit as an endorsement of all content therein, not just the content that I enjoyed. I know that not everyone sees it that way, but I simply did not feel right continuing to use the site knowing the type of content that was there.
what if I'm racist but level headed out discussing it?(not that I am)
Which basically lots of parts of reddit were. 'level-headed racists',indeed,they were.
I agree to a certain extent, but one of reddit's best attributes has always been having the freedom, as an average user, to speak your mind. Not that I support being an asshole on the internet. Like you said, there is some truly heinous shit on certain parts of reddit. I just believe that banning it tends to take us into an awkward grey area, in which site administrators decide which content is okay for us to see and we don't get a say. In a situation like that, the site becomes less user driven and more admin driven. That's what's been happening with reddit recently. It's no coincidence that this exodus began when the reddit admins began cracking down on subs like FPH. It's part of the larger issue of lack of transparency, commercialization, and censorship on reddit. Users don't feel that reddit is "theirs" anymore. And that disullionment all comes back to admin censorship of content. Even if said content is disgusting and immoral.
Well, to be fair, the site rules/etiquette on Snapzu state from the beginning that they don't allow racism or hate speech. So I think anyone who 'migrates' here shouldn't try to change that or push the limits of that rule.
Plus we know that it's not for advertising interests considering there are no advertisements. Even better, it seems to be consistently enforced and for the purpose of maintaining the culture of the community.
It's not that I'm especially fond of "hate speech". I'm not. I hate it. But the fact that it's not allowed implies that controversial opinions are not allowed. It sets a precedent for other types of speech to be banned. This is why it's better to err on the side of free speech.
Are you saying that you cant see any distinction between speech that is just controversial and speech that is not only controversial but also specifically designed to harass and intimidate certain groups of people off the forum?
I'll have to think about that. "Hate speech" is a pretty vague thing, and it could be abused in any number of ways. What I consider "harassing and intimidating" is likely different than what you consider "harassing and intimidating". This is why a lot of people prefer to filter the content themselves rather than having an admin do it for them. It is a tricky subject, no doubt.
Well in real world legal contexts, that problem of subjectivity is solved by 1) using the Reasonable Person standard, and 2) considerations of intent. It shouldn't be any different online.
I guess I don't understand why no hate speech necessarily sets that precedent and I definitely don't agree that "no hate speech" implies "controversial opinions not allowed". Even controversial views can be phrased in a way that isn't hateful. I think if this rule bothers newcomers then Snapzu might not be the best place for them.
I absolutely agree. However, who decides what's hateful? All it takes is for one person to get offended by something that you said.
An honest opinion? Or thinly-veiled intimidation? Do you see what I mean now?
It was an honest opinion. The whole reason I posted this topic was to discuss how an existing community might have concerns about an influx of redditors opposing the feel of a community. If one of the basic site rules causes significant amount of ire for new users, then there are other websites they might feel more comfortable participating in. I'm a new user - there's not much I can do to intimidate.
No worries. I just wanted to illustrate how it's easy to misinterpret people's comments. I'm just wondering how invested I want to get in a site that's not 100% free speech. No doubt there will be heated discussions on here from time to time, and I don't want to have to worry about getting kicked off just because I said something that's not PC.
Unless you're planing on setting up an overtly bigoted tribe or constantly spewing bullshit, you have nothing to worry about. I have conversations on here with people I don't agree with all the time, and I don't even downvote them for the most part. It's really not such a slippery slope as all that. The reputation score feature will likely do much of the work to censure assholes... BUT if assholes were in the majority, then reputation would work for and not against them, SO it's important to establish what kind of community we're going for here. It is possible that you would get kicked off if you're doing your best to be a dipshit, but if not, I really think your concern is unwarranted. If you don't want to get invested, that's your call. Free speech is usually balanced with other values, not framed as a 100% guarantee.
Where have these assurances been given? I feel uncomfortable knowing snapzu may not be 100% comitted to free speech like the others.
Possibly as reference to Rule 8 in the site rules/etiquette, found here.
That's...a little too vague, maybe, but seems standard for most websites. I guess what matters is what is considered "hate speech". For example, I consider Rick Santorum comparing homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality to be "hate speech", but I don't think that somebody should be banned for saying something like that.
Perhaps, but it may end up being self-regulating before the admins ever have to step in. If someone gets downvoted far more than upvoted, they may be temporarily prevented from participating. From the 9th point in the Reputation FAQ:
Certain thins you can definitely draw a line at. Someone dehumanizing people for what their race or literally saying they hate x people.
I contacted the Snapzu team directly as I thought their terms were somewhat ambiguous and they were very clear that hate speech and bigotry would not be tolerated. This is not a 100% free speech site, so if that's what you're after I suggest you look elswhere.
That doesn't remove ambiguity, it just reiterates what it already says in the terms.
The ambiguity was in whether this was a code of conduct that the admins hope the users will enforce, or if it's something that the admins themselves would be involved in enforcing if necessary. They stated that they were invested in keeping Snapzu free of overt hate speech, and that if the community failed to stifle hateful content they would take action. So far this hasn't been much of an issue. I only asked the admins because I anticipated an influx of Redditors that would be fleeing the site as it tries to monetize, and I was concerned that a certain subset of these users would seek to recreate the hate forums of Reddit here.
Again, consideration of intent on the part of the speaker and use of the reasonable person standard on the part of the alleged victim should lead to sufficient clarity in what ought to be banned or not.
I believe is possible for people not to have known about /r/fatpeoplehate. You see when you join, you get automatically subscribed to a few default subreddits. That beocme your "front page". Unless you click the "all" tab there's no reason for you to see any /r/fatpeoplehate posts or any other sub for that matter.
Sure, it's possible that people didn't know about FPH, but that means that they were not paying attention to the site overall, no? That's what I was saying, that they were not paying attention. I know some people just go to select subs and ignore everything else, but FPH was not low profile as some might imply.
I was on Reddit all day everyday and never came across anything like FPH until right before all of the drama happened.
Yeah, I see what you are saying. I misread. My mistake.
I had been on Reddit for years (in fact, I was just 5 months away from my 10 year badge). And I didn't know specifically about /r/fph. I'd been growing sick of the default communities for several years, and unsubscribed from pretty much all of them. I rarely searched for things, I didn't look for new subreddits, I never went to /all. I was subscribed to a range of medium to smaller subreddits that met my interest. I do agree that the overall negative behavior was certainly noticeable (hence why I fled to the subreddits I did), and I was aware of some of the downvote brigading and other antics that made the site lose it's luster for me.
Yeah, being exposed to different viewpoints is one thing, but there are just too many people on reddit who are belligerently stupid and/or hateful. It got to the point where I would dread reading my inbox because about 25-30% of my replies made me want to leave the planet. There's a saying about avoiding "toxic people" in your life, and I think it applies to a lesser extent online, too. I have a quotient of annoying bullshit I'm willing to put up with, and reddit was consistently overrunning that.
Hhmmm. I'll have to see how that works out. My philosophy is very pro-free speech. I think that you should be able to be a raving bigot, but others should be able to block you if they don't want to listen to your ravings. That way, bigots are censured by the community, not by site administration. Just like in Real Life.
Is the US government "normalizing" neo-Nazis but not censoring them? I don't think so. I think you should be able to speak freely and give your opinion, and I should be able to speak freely disagreeing with you. The problem I had wasn't with neo-Nazis so much as assholes (bigoted and otherwise).
Speaking of assholes...PZ seems to be incapable of holding civil conversations with people. I've never commented on his blog, but I've read the comments section, and ...OY. What a cesspool. I used to respect him, but his ship has sailed from me a long time ago.
Censorship by the state is a totally different issue. The state is a centralized power that has domain over all of the citizens of a country. The state can have you arrested and thrown in prison. Obviously it's important for there to be limits to that power, and disallowing censoring of speech is one of the limits we've (in the US at least) agreed to. When you have dispersed and private entities, like websites, they are free to agree to their own codes of conduct and mission statements and posting restrictions etc. I could have a site where only pictures of cats are allowed, and if you post a picture of a dog you are banned for life. This is not a restriction of anyone's freedom. You do not have a reasonable expectation of absolute free speech everywhere you go. Website admins can't arrest you like the state can. They only have the power to exclude you from conversation if they so choose. This is not something for which you can claim legal damage, because, again, you have no reasonable expectation for unfettered speech. If you value 100% free speech above all else, then, by all means, set up a site where you can say whatever you like whenever you want.
As for normalizing hate speech, let me explain. Certain speech, such as that promoting dehumanization and/or eliminationism of groups of people, is generally culturally taboo. The character of a society is determined by social norms, and social norms are often expressed and enforced through speech. It's a question of what kind of a society you would like to live in. By normalizing I mean that Reddit bills itself as being "the front page of the Internet". The forum in which speech appears matters. If the front page of the New York Times (or, hell, the back page) had a story about how some ethnic group is evil and need to be destroyed, that would be a lot more concerning than a random guy on the street handing you a handwritten pamphlet expressing the same sentiment. One way that hateful ideologies, those that call for the elimination or subjugation of others, are kept in check is through intentional marginalization of those views. If you go to a hate-group's website, you are aware that the views there are only supported by those who are participating on that site. When you go to a sub on Reddit that is espousing the same ideology, you may assume that everyone on Reddit, from r/science to r/aww, is at least okay enough with that ideology to share a space with its proponents. This has the effect of normalizing those ideologies. It's also a matter of accessibility. I'm not very likely to randomly stumble across a hate site I'm not looking for. On Reddit it was hard to ignore these groups. You could be looking at something on r/news and get caught up in it. Hell, you could have a multi and look at r/aww and r/fatpeoplehate at the same time.
I do not know how the free speech absolutists have seized control of this conversation to the degree that they have. Free speech is something to be weighed against other freedoms which are also important and valuable, such as the freedom from harassment and the chilling of speech which occurs when bigots control the conversation. Just because you value free speech doesn't mean that you have no standards and no expectation of conduct. People who complain about grey areas are not thinking critically enough, and are likely just regurgitating a slogan they heard someplace. Life is full of grey areas which humans are uniquely capable of navigating. Social ...
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I've been here for a couple of weeks, hardly old, but now accustomed to the atmosphere. I came when /r/fatpeoplehate was banned without warning. I had never been on that subreddit, but I knew then that the new admins do not plan to discuss their future actions with the average user, and that was a big problem for me.
When I came here I was somehow expecting the massive population of new people to establish a new order, and I was ready for it. But it didn't happen.
The new people that stayed actually tried to learn from what the old ones had done and grow into the shape that Snapzu had already taken.
I am not worried that the new users will change Snapzu. I'm sure there is plenty of room for everyone, as long as there is understanding, maturity and a will to do good unto others.
I can do a take on some of the old peeps here and tell you how I feel about them in a short description, if anyone is interested.
One thing that I find odd, and great, is the lack of downvotes. It's really amazing to see genuine disagreement on things without having to be disagreeable. Maybe there's something to this system.
I haven't even downvoted anything yet! (And it's not me being me because I've downvoted plenty on reddit.) It has something to do with how people speak to each other, I think. It's hard to angerily downvote someone who's being nice.
Are you referring to the fact that the community itself doesn't brigade downvotes?
and in general when people are discussing something. On reddit if you argue something with someone you will likely be downvoted for disagreeing with that person. Like we could be talking about censorship and the person I'm arguing against is downvoting me(a form of censorship).
That would be refreshing indeed.
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As someone who has been here awhile, I left Digg for Reddit and now Snapzu to escape Reddit. I would be an unhappy camper if Snapzu turned to the dark Reddit side,that's for sure. I hope it won't.
If you don't mind me asking, how long do you mean by 'a while'? And was there a particular moment or event that inspired you to create an account at Snapzu?
Not OP but I've been here 18 months or so and I found the link off a reddit post (I'm assuming this thread means people that didn't leave because of the current reddit drama). I made my account because this site is sexy as hell but haven't been that active because, well, the site isn't that active. I know, I know.
I actually am in about the same situation as you are. I saw a lot of possibilities with this site, but unfortunately didn't have enough things to share with it, I felt. Thus, I would just pop by and lurk every now and then. But this time around I might just stay, simply because there is more of a community to speak of. I am worried about it growing too big, and bringing both the good and the bad, but thus far I've been happy with what I've been seeing from this userbase. I'm exciting to see where it goes from here, and will hopefully take more part in the discussions here. :)
As long as their admins listen to the Tribe moderators and help grow the toolsets for admins it won't spiral down into what Reddit became. A lot of the problem with Reddit and sub-reddits was/is the fact that as a reddit mod a lot of the times you feel so helpless.
As a redditor, you also feel helpless in trying to get something noticed before you are downvoted to oblivion.
http://snapzu.com/Gozzin/overview About a year and a half by the looks of things. I'm amazed I hadn't even heard of this site until today. It's so easy to get into a routine of the same few repetitive websites if one's not careful.
Duh, of course I should've looked at his profile. Very handy, thank you! My urge to talk to others here overrode my common sense.
I'm here after leaving reddit, but I'd love to see what the tribespeople have to say on it. As a new user, I like to lurk a fair bit before diving into the discussions and the likes and what I've seen so far, I like. The real effects of the migration will only be there a couple of weeks from now but it's good to think on it beforehand.
I just came here today from Reddit. I'm excited to see how things turn out, but hope it keeps the same feel I'm getting now from Snapzu. There doesn't seem to be much arguing, name calling, spamming, and "Karma Whoring". Posts seem to be insightful and well thought out. The comment sections are not overrun with memes and overused jokes. Hopefully things can continue forward as they are now because it seems like a great community.
I'm in this boat, came over from Reddit just today, and the atmosphere alone is already leagues better. Downside being, there isn't a lot of content here, but that's where the influx of new users is going to help (hopefully) by providing new content and creating new Tribes.
While there isn't the mass amount of content on here that Reddit has, the quality seems much better. Maybe I just think this because everything here seems new and shiny. I also feel more motivated to submit content and join in discussions than I did over at Reddit.
I just migrated as well. All we can do to keep the quality of this place is to lead by example and leave all the reddit stuff behind. Don't downvote brigade, don't use reddit references (Op is a bundle of sticks, m'lady, karma, etc.), embrace the new terminology, and to quote bill and ted "Be excellent to eachother!"
The site is almost unusable for me now. 3+ minutes to load a page. I hope capacity is increased soon.
Me, too! It's been rough today.
Sorry about that! I know I helped contribute to the slowness today, but I'll be working to return the favour by sharing good content. Thanks for the patience.
Aww, that's fine. We're glad to have you! :D
I've noticed that in /t/lounge and /t/newtribes, people are just starting up a bunch of their favorite subreddits. I don't know why, but that's kind of annoying to me.
I came here from reddit today and it kind of annoys me too. Why would you leave reddit only to come here and try and recreate the exact same site. I'm sure this site could benefit from new tribes and more content but recreating reddit subs and posting old reposts from them doesn't seem like a great idea.
I agree with not creating the exact same site, Reddit was horrible in a bunch of various ways that this place improves upon drastically. I also agree with how porting posts over could be annoying. I do think, though, that it's okay to start your favorite tribes based on subreddits you subscribed to in the past. You still have those interests, and you'd still like a place to discuss those specific interests with other people. I don't believe there's any harm in that. When I got here I created /t/3DS so that I could have a place to share and chat with other 3DS owners and I don't believe that inherently takes away from Snapzu or makes it less of a great experience or more like Reddit.
THAT SAID, recreating something like /t/showerthoughts is an obvious exception to my point. Still, I don't think it's hurting anybody, but I get where you're coming from. I'm just saying not all subreddit recreations are inherently harmful to the community. Just an opinion! :)
I didn't say it was hurting anything, just that it was kind of annoying.
specific tribes like 3DS are one thing, but generic tribes like _____porn or like you said, showerthoughts, try and be creative and come up with a different name.
I agree we should kinda start our own traditions. I get what you're saying.
i see nothing wrong with recreating subs like showerthoughts. it's a great subreddit, why not have the same greatness here?
It is a good subreddit, but I'd rather see it called something like 'thoughtsfromtheshower' or 'showerideas' instead. calling it showerthougths just makes it feel like a direct port. Snapzu isn't an emulator.
this only makes it harder to find, and doesn't change the feel or the content, so why bother?
As someone from reddit I worried about tramping in on a 'family' feel sort of site but darn, this place is just so pretty! I really do hope it gathers some of the more interesting content that reddit had but does not become like reddit.
Nonsense! Welcome aboard! I'm sure you'll fit right in here. Why don't you bring whatever interesting content you enjoy with you? ;)
Thanks so much for the welcome! I sure will try!
I just hoped the drama would stay on Reddit. I came here to get away from all that, and now it's everywhere.
It's hard to avoid. Eventually things will return to normal and hopefully we will become a stronger community moving forward.
I came over from Reddit and love it. Maybe because it doesn't seem stuck in the last decade. Great to find a place with a different feel-reddit collapsing under its own incompetance was overdue.
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