However, the support was overwhelming and echoed the sentiment our shutdown illustrated — anger at the way the company routinely demands that the volunteers and community accept major changes that reduce our efficiency and increase our workload.
The thing is, the protesting from the users has no justification such as this. Many regular Redditors are jumping on the bandwagon because they believe that the entire movement is to be blamed on Ellen Pao, when in reality, the moderators of the subs that blacked out set them to private because they want tools that they don't have otherwise. Askreddit put a timer in their sidebar to show when they expect new and better moderation tools by, but users continued to complain about the subreddit not staying blacked out - even when the original purpose of the blackout was simply to ask for better communication and tools. In the meantime, regular Redditors who seem to believe themselves to be a part of some great movement continue to mindlessly downvote Pao's comments that actually support what the vast majority of Redditors are asking for.
That's why I disagree with the last line of the article.
Users are not simply a screaming mob. They are actually asking for reasonable support, and as moderators, we are trying very hard to do what we can to make those changes happen.
Sadly, a majority of the users are actually behaving like a screaming mindless mob.
The problem is that this came really close time wise to the banning of FatPeopleHate and similar subreddits, a vocal minority of users are still upset about that and are using this issue to further vent their anger at Reddit.
Also some users just want to see the world burn regardless and will use any excuse to do so.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but there are other grievances with Reddit that I think at least some of the "protest" for lack of a better term stems from. Along with the leadership came a focus on profit that detracted from Reddit's original ethos. On top of that, having hoards of people come from Digg, 9gag et al, and even 4chan also started that old Eternal September feeling. I used to enjoy seeing my orangered, but eventually came to dread it. Oh great, who wants to swear at and argue with me now?!?
As far as that particular subreddit, the IamA/AMAs had already turned sour in my mouth. I can only imagine how bad it is poised to get now that the key employee that at least kept it organized is canned. I see video AMAs on the horizon (AKA commercials).
I guess my particular case is different though, since I opted to just stop going rather than stay and 'fight'. I have been tired of that place for a long time, and it had nothing to do with 'free speech'. I have started tending to my RSS feed again, and Snapzu is proving to be a very nice social-eque time waster! :)
I agree that users are behaving like a screaming mob, and also that they are more than that in aggregate. What this all points to, for me, is the question of who can, or should, claim ownership of reddit's success and potential.
It's hard to argue that the users and mods have no stake in the site, but they often don't behave (especially lately) as owners, and instead substitute entitlement and witch hunting for stewardship. And, I would argue, the on-paper ownership (the money) doesn't seem to realize that, mob-mentality or not, the volunteer labor and contributions of users and mods are their primary asset - not an impediment to success or a blank slate that can be reconfigured for greater profit. Neither side seems to have a sense of what their (contested) 'ownership' of reddit's future means.
To make matters worse, I see the communication breakdown around the subject of ownership and its responsibilities as the animating force behind reddit's form over the last few years - which a good many people consider inviolable despite its ad hoc and difficult to define nature. In other words, in the absence of good communication between "ownership" parties, a system emerged organically, without significant top-down guidance, that could define and claim ownership over itself without external challenges to its identity, and thus thrive on a lack of communication.
Now, forced to communicate - even to demand better communication - the unpaid 'owners' in that system have to confront the ownership issue in conversation with investors whose idea of reddit's future is unclear, but seemingly not founded on its current reality. Instead of bridging that gap, the unpaid have chosen to either: 1) try to continue as if nothing has changed, or 2) hope that lashing out and emphatically agreeing with one another will bring the change they want - whatever that is. Or maybe no change at all is the goal. Meanwhile, the on-paper owners of reddit have released placating statements and generally assumed that some tweaks, reassurances, and time are all that is needed to make the changes they want while giving the appearance that nothing has changed.
I think something has to change, and it has to start with the paid and unpaid acknowledging the unpleasant but real validities of each other's ownership claims, and by ditching the assumptions they've formed about reddit in the absence of such honest communication. I don't think that will happen, honestly, and anyway - maybe none of the parties involved really want it to happen. It's practically anathema to what reddit has become.
(Holy huge post! Sorry about that. I'll try to edit it down later.)
Any website lives and dies by their guests. And if they're unhappy, it's something that needs to be fixed because they can move on. Websites are entertainment, and therefore they either please the users or fail. You can't sell ads if no one visits.
Well why wouldn't the admins ban the offending users? I don't think a significant percentage of the 100k+ subscribers were doxxing and harassing people.
When they banned other fat related subreddits without the same mods, it was apparent it was about censorship, and literally the "banning of ideas"
It was my understanding that the admins of Imgur started removing the photos of people that FPH were hosting on Imgur. This prompted FPH to retaliate by posting photos of the Imgur admins on FPH and upvoting them like crazy. Imgur admins contacted Reddit admins and FPH was banned.
I understand that the mods that joined this protest feel like users are "hijacking" their protest movement, but I think it was inevitable because users have legitimate grievances as well, and they don't have the power that the moderators do to get the attention of those who run reddit, unless they just leave, which ends up being a "Pyrrhic victory."
On my sub, we asked the users and with their overwhelming approval, we shut down. If you do a good mod job, you go with the users and vice-versa.
Maybe subs like FatPeopleHate needed to go for legitimate reasons, but there was no actual proof presented of what they were being accused of. The admins just said, "It's happening, so the subs have to go."
The part that was hard to swallow for me and plenty of others was "Why them and not all the rest of the hate crap?". I banned white supremacists yesterday. They're super easy to spot because they come to your sub trying to convince you to keep white (oh sorry, it's "european" now) and they are subscribed to a bunch of white power subs. Why is that acceptable to reddit?
The thing is, the protesting from the users has no justification such as this. Many regular Redditors are jumping on the bandwagon because they believe that the entire movement is to be blamed on Ellen Pao, when in reality, the moderators of the subs that blacked out set them to private because they want tools that they don't have otherwise. Askreddit put a timer in their sidebar to show when they expect new and better moderation tools by, but users continued to complain about the subreddit not staying blacked out - even when the original purpose of the blackout was simply to ask for better communication and tools. In the meantime, regular Redditors who seem to believe themselves to be a part of some great movement continue to mindlessly downvote Pao's comments that actually support what the vast majority of Redditors are asking for.
That's why I disagree with the last line of the article.
Sadly, a majority of the users are actually behaving like a screaming mindless mob.
The problem is that this came really close time wise to the banning of FatPeopleHate and similar subreddits, a vocal minority of users are still upset about that and are using this issue to further vent their anger at Reddit.
Also some users just want to see the world burn regardless and will use any excuse to do so.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but there are other grievances with Reddit that I think at least some of the "protest" for lack of a better term stems from. Along with the leadership came a focus on profit that detracted from Reddit's original ethos. On top of that, having hoards of people come from Digg, 9gag et al, and even 4chan also started that old Eternal September feeling. I used to enjoy seeing my orangered, but eventually came to dread it. Oh great, who wants to swear at and argue with me now?!?
As far as that particular subreddit, the IamA/AMAs had already turned sour in my mouth. I can only imagine how bad it is poised to get now that the key employee that at least kept it organized is canned. I see video AMAs on the horizon (AKA commercials).
I guess my particular case is different though, since I opted to just stop going rather than stay and 'fight'. I have been tired of that place for a long time, and it had nothing to do with 'free speech'. I have started tending to my RSS feed again, and Snapzu is proving to be a very nice social-eque time waster! :)
I agree that users are behaving like a screaming mob, and also that they are more than that in aggregate. What this all points to, for me, is the question of who can, or should, claim ownership of reddit's success and potential.
It's hard to argue that the users and mods have no stake in the site, but they often don't behave (especially lately) as owners, and instead substitute entitlement and witch hunting for stewardship. And, I would argue, the on-paper ownership (the money) doesn't seem to realize that, mob-mentality or not, the volunteer labor and contributions of users and mods are their primary asset - not an impediment to success or a blank slate that can be reconfigured for greater profit. Neither side seems to have a sense of what their (contested) 'ownership' of reddit's future means.
To make matters worse, I see the communication breakdown around the subject of ownership and its responsibilities as the animating force behind reddit's form over the last few years - which a good many people consider inviolable despite its ad hoc and difficult to define nature. In other words, in the absence of good communication between "ownership" parties, a system emerged organically, without significant top-down guidance, that could define and claim ownership over itself without external challenges to its identity, and thus thrive on a lack of communication.
Now, forced to communicate - even to demand better communication - the unpaid 'owners' in that system have to confront the ownership issue in conversation with investors whose idea of reddit's future is unclear, but seemingly not founded on its current reality. Instead of bridging that gap, the unpaid have chosen to either: 1) try to continue as if nothing has changed, or 2) hope that lashing out and emphatically agreeing with one another will bring the change they want - whatever that is. Or maybe no change at all is the goal. Meanwhile, the on-paper owners of reddit have released placating statements and generally assumed that some tweaks, reassurances, and time are all that is needed to make the changes they want while giving the appearance that nothing has changed.
I think something has to change, and it has to start with the paid and unpaid acknowledging the unpleasant but real validities of each other's ownership claims, and by ditching the assumptions they've formed about reddit in the absence of such honest communication. I don't think that will happen, honestly, and anyway - maybe none of the parties involved really want it to happen. It's practically anathema to what reddit has become.
(Holy huge post! Sorry about that. I'll try to edit it down later.)
Any website lives and dies by their guests. And if they're unhappy, it's something that needs to be fixed because they can move on. Websites are entertainment, and therefore they either please the users or fail. You can't sell ads if no one visits.
[This comment was removed]