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Published 7 years ago by CrookedTale with 16 Comments
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Conversation 9 comments by 5 users
  • RoamingGnome (edited 7 years ago)
    +10

    I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the attitude of police that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and then they are backed-up by prosecutors who won't prosecute them and/or judges that won't convict them, creates the frustration that leads to this type of situation. This is exactly the same scenario as terrorists. We go in and kill innocent people, we bomb weddings, and then when people retaliate we wonder why they are so mad at us. Here's a clue- if you abuse people long enough and hard enough, they will retaliate. That's exactly how this country was started- by a bunch of pissed-off terrorists.

    "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - TJ

    I do not take the killing of people lightly. But, people die in wars. The police started this war and they kill way more people that the other side. I don't have a solution, but I see the problem clearly.

    • NomadiChris
      +6

      Sad fact is people aren't really looking for the truth. Even sadder is that when the bubble inevitably bursts, shootings like this one will be considered a minor thing.

    • Project2501
      +5

      So it sounds like you are you for the second amendment?

      I do not take the killing of people lightly. But, people die in wars. The police started this war and they kill way more people that the other side. I don't have a solution, but I see the problem clearly.

      So what do you expect police to do in this scenario? How are you installing this new guard? Let's for the moment agree that some police departments are fucked up in the US, how do Americans deal with the current situation in Chicago? Do you let any armed militia with a bone to pick with the government to form their own civil guard? You state you have no solution, but you want more police to die, because you are at war.

      The entire point of the justice system, of the different branches of government in modern democracies is to provide checks, and balances, so that no one is outside the scope of the law. Then again, I am just spoiled, I live in a country where cops are regularly seen doing things like handing out water to protesters. And notions that prosecutors and judges are burned politically, that cases of high level corruption/improper conduct when it comes to criminal behaviour, and that goes for the police as well, still go through the proper channels.

      You don't take killing people lightly, but all your rhetoric does is inflame an us versus them mentality. Cops are just going to be investing in more assault weapons, more drones, to ensure when the time comes, they can respond with the lowest cost of life. And you know what? When I see comments like yours which states this is a war, I kind of can't blame them.

      • CrookedTale
        +6

        I will ad this to the conversation just so we are clear on this. Cops, local or state, in the US are not federal employees. Each state or local municipality is in charge of its police force but they do get some federal assistance. If it is war between one party and the police it is not an attack on the federal government. The seperation of the police force and the government allows us to call in a federal investigation when we need a third party to look at police corruption. If all heck breaks out the feds can also come in armed to keep the peace and overide (somewhat) the local or state police force. At the problems highest escalation it will be a three party battle.

      • RoamingGnome
        +3

        I never stated anything of the kind. I simply said I see why people are killing cops. The same applies with Islamic terrorists. Just because I understand what creates and drives terrorists does not mean that I agree with them.

        And, it's not rhetoric.

        • Project2501
          +4

          I see the problem with how the discourse has been shaped, and charged that all police are the enemy, and that they started it/killed more. They are people from the community doing a shit job, doing what they are told to do, to the best of their abilities in most cases.

          And bullshit. It is rhetoric. "the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques." "This is exactly the same scenario as terrorists. We go in and kill innocent people, we bomb weddings, and then when people retaliate we wonder why they are so mad at us. Here's a clue- if you abuse people long enough and hard enough, they will retaliate." is pure rhetoric.

      • NomadiChris
        +3

        Sounds like you're not from the US. I'm not either. I guess I can say I've educated myself about the country's history, culture plus followed the news closely for the last few years (also visited a while back). I can say that the situation over there is very very different than in other countries and I specifically refer to such events like the Dallas shootings. It does go beyond the scope of the law; the point of the justice system and its implementation are two different things and that's exactly a large part of the issue. But anyway, what is your solution or suggestion on improving the situation?

        • Project2501 (edited 7 years ago)
          +3

          No, I am not. Why I inserted an explicit bit about being spoiled in a different country.

          However, I guess I can say "I guess I can say I've educated myself about the country's history, culture plus followed the news closely for the last few years (also visited a while back)." as well. I have been reading NYTimes, PBS, Washington Post, etc, for long enough to legitimately remember a time when they would have been at the forefront of the Snowden leaks, as opposed to defaulting to the likes of The Guardian and The Intercept. American history is taught extensively, considering how entwined it is into our own, and modern western major events.

          People need to cut it out with the divisive politicking online, or in person. Cops have, and always will be members of the community first. Community events like Gay Pride Parades need to be explicit about having people from all walks of life, putting forward demands that the police have a reduced presence is precisely how you make sure people do not see eachother as people, instead only as the enemy. There needs to be, at every level of government clear, and equal consequences for breaking the law. Yes, police are constantly placed in fucked up situations, an unfortunate amount of time where they need to respond to violence/real threats in kind, but they still end up in court to face charges of manslaughter. People need to call out any comments that of violence towards police as justified out, especially, as I thought it didn't need explaining, they are split up municipal, state, and national. Tougher policy changes for the US are the private industrialisation of prisons, the prohibition on marijuana. Take money out of the people who profit from the current state of affairs. However, the only practical, immediate solution is going to be more drones, more militarisation of the police force in America. Because until online discourse of "All Lives Matter" is not dismissed as racist, it will only get worse,. because somehow in the past twenty years, MLK teachings have been not nearly as stressed as they should be. EDIT: Missed some important words.

          EDIT 2: Even though it is hilarious given the context of the Clinton FBI/State investigations, I am quoting aspects of what Lynch has said recently that I agree with:

          “After the events this week, Americans across the country are feeling a sense of helplessness, of uncertainty, of fear. Now, these feelings are understandable and they are justified. But the answer must not be violence. The answer must never be violence,” Lynch said.

          “Rather, the answer must be action: calm, peaceful, collaborative and determined action. Calm, peaceful, collaborative and determined action. We must continue working to build trust between communities and law enforcement. We must continue working to guarantee every person in this country equal justice under the law,” she said.

          • AdelleChattre
            +3

            Cops have, and always will be members of the community first.

            Wishful thinking. Cops typically don't live where they work. Police departments were established to protect the merchant and professional classes in urban areas, performing the traditional function of a county sheriff and a territorial army regiment on a mass scale. The notion they serve the general population is Pollyanna nonsense. I've known a lot of law enforcement. Their jobs aren't boring. I wouldn't, as many would, describe them as toadies. They are troops, though. However modern.

            Community events like Gay Pride Parades need to be explicit about having people from all walks of life, putting forward demands that the police have a reduced presence is precisely how you make sure people do not see eachother as people, instead only as the enemy.

            Sounds nice. Too bad for all that flowery talk that police have always been natural predators of the LGBTQ community. Or are we supposed to pretend, now that we're some few decades into the sexual revolution in the U.S. and cops no longer openly roust most LGBTQ folks as a matter of course, that it never happened, or still doesn't happen today.

            Spend a night in the Tenderloin and see whether ‘community policing’ is fact or fiction.

            "But the answer must not be violence. The answer must never be violence."

            The greater context here is tragedy. All of these stolen lives are tragic, wounding to so many, and clearly and terribly wrong. As is the context beyond that and so on into regress.

            However, since you seem not to know it, the social revolution in the United States around civil rights, womens' and sexual liberation, did not come about without fighting.

            It was before the Stonewall Riots that LGBTQ people started fighting back against brutal police raids. You don't get your Disneyfied late Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. without Malcolm X and the Black Panthers. I've known plenty of the people on all sides of the courtroom to do with some of those struggles, and I can tell you one thing for certain: they were all scared shitless of one another, and that fear kept them safer than they'd've been ofherwise.

            That's one reason I'm uncomfortable in suburbs. You meet a better class of person when everyone knows foolishness can get you shot.

  • Rurichan
    +5

    We are living in increasingly terrifying times. Mass shootings, mass surveillance, police brutality and violent reprisals, terrorism both foreign and domestic (this is domestic, racial terrorism!) and we have no say in it. Our only choices in presidency are a kafkaesque nightmare of a woman who is a national traitor, and a nationalist CEO of a major corporation whose idea of solving the Mexican immigration problem is imitating the Chinese vis-a-vis the Mongols. We are living in a dystopia, and it's only getting worse as time goes by.

  • CrookedTale
    +4

    This whole week has been nothing but a disappointment.

    • ckshenn
      +3

      Can't wait to see what the weekend brings!!! /s

      • CrookedTale
        +2

        Hopefully it will bring us one day closer to a solution to our problems. It is always very easy an individual to justify the why these shootings happened but it is a lot harder to give up that justification in order to come up with a solution. The soloution or even the act of trying to come up with one seems to be a fairytale.

    • Gozzin
      +3

      I agree...And I suspect there is more to come. I just hope this does not end in a race or religious war.

  • geoleo
    +3

    Its up to 5 dead now. Sniper fire involved holy shit.

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